How to landscape under these trees?

[estesbubba]

We recently moved from the city to a place with 2.3 acres. I wanted to split some hostas before moving, but by the time the deal was done, the ground was frozen. We have a group of trees that desperately needs some landscaping as it's nothing but dirt. I really need some suggestions on what to do with the area. I definitely want to plant some hostas but we have a lot of deer and I'm wondering if they will just chow them? Other than hostas, how would you plant in this area? I want this to be a low maintenance area. I thought about fine fescues and letting them grow unmowed, thinking they might give a look like short prairie grass? Would hostas look at home with fescue grass? I would like to have some flowering color but think with all the shade, it might not be possible. I don't know what to do but know I don't want to leave the area as dirt. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Here are some pictures of the area.

[newtohosta-no more]

Congrats on your move! I hope you will be very happy there. That looks like a fine stand of trees and the area below it is just begging for something, isn't it? Can you post on here what kinds of trees are growing in that area. Some trees have roots that will strangle out hostas and other plants , so that info might help some of the people on here with their suggestions.
Good luck....and do post progress pics when you start your new gardening project. We sure do enjoy seeing them.

[Hosta-Haven]

Estesbubba,

Oh man, I have LOTS of ideas and photos for you! In 2006 I was exactly where you are now...a big stand of trees that were a PAIN to mow around...mine were further apart than yours! We had an arbor built and prepared the soil.



We put in paths and started adding hostas (I had 134 different varieties I had moved from Menasha, WI and was overwintering them in a holding bed at my son's house down the street)...






By 2007 it was starting to fill out nicely...





I also added some other plants...
Jack in the Pulpit

Brunnera (Jack Frost)


Ajuga


and Sweet Woodruff



close up

[R. Rock]

Hello!
The vatiety of trees do make a difference on what will grow and for how long. If you are unsure of the varieties, this spring dig around and see how much root competition lays under the surface of the soil. I would consider thinning some of the trees before they leaf out, that way it won't be such a shock, and the overall health of the garden will reward you for many years. Fescue will tolerate shade, but the dryness under the trees will require maintenance (water). I do think hosta with fescue would not be a pretty site. You have made the comment about the bareness. It seems this is a view year round, I have had good luck with the evergreen yew, taunton. Deer resistant , year round color, little care, looks natural, tolerant of root competition, and combines well w/ other plantings. Hydrangea: Annabelle also fits here. You have not provided your zone or cold hardiness. You could also mix in some large stone (called outcroppings) for additional year round structure and interest. No maintenance w/ stone. I have worked some areas similar to this, amended all the soil, installed the "shade perennials",installed irrigation (soaker hoses) mulched the surface, and then all of the sudden after about 3-5 yrs everything comes to a screaching hault! The tree roots have sent out thousands of feeder roots in this optimum environment and it is fruitless to continue to try and grow against the root competition. Yes, it can be done, termination will help, however just filling the "Bird Bath" every other day can become a chore. The trees take all the moisture and the soil has become "dead". There are shade and drought tolerant perennials however, I am not impressed so far. Plants w/ deep roots compared to shallow will increase survival. I do think on the bed edge you do need some color, hosta would be a good start. Hosta haven provided you with some nice pictures and examples here. Experiment, better yet see what others in your neighborhood are having luck with. A park bench or two with a path will create a nice focal point. A cool area to relax, enjoy, & eat up maintenance space. Make this area twice the size you think you need, now you have a place to entertain. Function & Structure (focal points) come first and then bring it to life(pretty) w/ emphasis on Four Season plant material. The structures will also help deter the deer. You can go to the garden gallery and link to my gardens.

[Hosta-Haven]

Just a footnote to my earlier post...

The trees in these beds are almost all white oaks and black cherry with the exception of one rotting Norway Maple...here you can see what I did with that....yup! I shoved a hosta down its throat! The hosta didn't survive the winter but it was fun for the garden walk that year!

[estesbubba]

Thanks for the quick advice. Here is what I know are growing in there:

2 cottonwoods
1 black locust
hackberrys
mulberrys

There could be some other species but I can't tell until they get leaves.

Hosta-Haven - that is beautiful landscaping! Your trees look to be a lot more spread out than mine which might mean I have more root competition. I'm jealous you have all those white oaks. They are my favorite trees, my favorite wood to use for woodworking, and my favorite wood for smoking BBQ.

[Pandora]

Here are a couple shots from one of my tree islands. I have maples, cottonwood, cherry, walnut, dogwoods, and others.
I think I have posted these before, so I hope this is not boring.

[Chris_W]

Excellent advise already, I agree that you should dig around in that area this spring to see what kind of root competition you are dealing with. Love the idea of some rocks for year round interest too.

If the root competition is bad hostas will pretty much be out of the question. Then you could just fill it up with a groundcover like Lamium, which is pretty all summer long and would be really low maintenance, or try some other drought tolerant plants such as epimedium, carex, heuchera, tiarella, vinca, or kerria.

Good luck!

Chris

[John]

I do some hosta gardening under a mulberry, and it is no problem at all---

I have to second Chris suggestion of EPIMEDIUM, mine tolerate any amount of dryness and maple roots!

MIght have to think some about what to use for winter color, hellebores thrive here, again even in dry shade with root competition, and were already to bloom before last night's 12" of snow! But structure will definitely add winter appeal, as suggested above--- a nice path, a bench, some rock.

Certain hostas are much more accomodating than others to root competition, but I'd certainly try those if possible.

Looks like a fun project, good luck!

[R. Rock]

The recomendations by Chris are certainly some "Dogproof" plants. I have delt with many vendors-suppliers over the years. Here at Hallson's you can really shop with confidence!!!! The plants are backed by experience and at prices to me that are "Wholesale". I am saying this out of respect; there are many nurseries that would make recomendations based soley on getting rid of their inventory. That is definately not the case here. Perhaps, that is the reason for the familyness and trust here. A tip with Lamium: I cut mine back to 4"-6" midseason. It will reward you with fresh, bright growth in a short amount of time. Later, Rick

[estesbubba]

Thanks for all the advice. Last weekend's snow has melted and some green blades of grass are showing A couple of questions:

1. We see deer daily on our property. How do hostas do with deer?

2. Doesn't Hallson's usually have a Spring sale? If so, when is it or have I missed it?

[newtohosta-no more]

Hallson's is having a special going on right now for people who order and prepay. If you click on the flowers on the upper left hand corner of the page it will take you to their sales website. Then click on "specials" in the list on the left side of the page. They usually have a sale sometime during the year, but I can't tell you exactly when. If you have any questions, just drop Chris an email or a PM and ask him. He's always very honest and helpful. I've had to ask his advice many , many times and on possible purchases. He's stopped me from buying something that wouldn't work for my needs and he's helped me pick out things that would. They stand by their plants also.

I ,myself, have never (knock on wood) had a deer problem, but I do know that other do. Every year it seems we have people asking for ways to deter the deer that are munching on their hostas. You can do a topic search to see what has already be discussed or just go ahead and start a thread about deer problems and I'm sure many will read it and give you their sage advice.

[Gardenitis]

Feb 2008.1

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Feb 2008

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In my experience, hostas are deer icecream - they just can't resist. My first year in this house, I planted about 10 hostas and rhodos one day and by the next day, all the hostas were gone. UGH! (It took a couple of weeks for them to eat the rhodos right down - double ugh!)


We've seen up to a dozen deer grazing in our yard at once, so I was desperate. After talking to area gardeners who had bought/tried every deer repellant available with not much luck, I read about a hosta collector in BC who had used grated Irish Spring soap. SO, that's what I started doing. It worked for me, only problem was the ugly piles of gooey soap after a rain. Husband came home and suggested drilling a hole in each soap bar, inserting a garden stake or piece of scrounged twig and using them like soap lollipops. Brilliant! I then hid them, stuck in the ground under the plants' leaves so they couldn't be seen. I bought the jumbo box of soap from Costco and in total I put about 30 bars throughout my gardens (10 or 12 separate beds).

Well, it's been about a year and NO deers in the garden in that amount of time (knock on wood). Not one, not even any deer tracks in the snow. Miraculous in my opinion considering we still see herds of deer just outside our perimeter fence (which they had previously jumped before with no issues to feast in my gardens) and all the neighbors still report deer carnage.

Thank god for Irish Spring soap!
I hope this helps...
Michelle

[jerry_br]

Be care using this method. They will get used to it and it will not longer be effective.

I have large heards around me too, and the only thing that can be done is a large fence.

Jerry

[newtohosta-no more]

Michelle....the view from your property is stunning!

[Gardenitis]

Thanks Joan for your compliment. We were on a 28 foot wide lot in the city before we moved here. I feel like I've died and gone straight to heaven. My favorite is Sunday, gardening as the church bells ring. Ah, heaven...

Over looking the town

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[rosemarie]

Hi Michelle, I have 3 or four Deer that go through our trees once in a while on the way to their digs, but they don't stop f or log. There is a 'potient you can mix that is suppossed to discourage them. It is made with tobasco sauce and you spray it on. If you are interested, I will pass it on. I was out in the trees today(we finally had a sunny day) and little poiints are coming up. We have had a cold winter for us and I am definitely ready for spring. How are you doing up North,Karma?

[newtohosta-no more]

I do remember some concoction that used Tabasco Sauce to repel deer. My DH's friend mixed up a jug and used it around his veggie garden and I guess if worked. I think the recipe was in one of the books written by Jerry Baker?

[Linda P]

What a stunning view! I have no experience with deer...they aren't a problem here.
IF they come naer the buildings, they usually stop at the silage behind the barn.
I've seen one deer in my yard in the 23 years we've been there, and one set of tracks one winter
about 7 or 8 years ago.
Linda P

[jgh]

Lots of good suggestions here. One more piece of research I'd suggest - find out if these are trees that respond badly to having their roots buried. Some trees don't care if you pile dirt on top of the current soil level - others can be killed with just a couple of inches of soil. Some trees take in oxygen through their roots and when people pile dirt around them and plant in it, they are smothering the tree.

So... if these are shallow-rooted trees, one could lay a layer of garden fabric on the surface roots and then pile about a foot of compost-rich soil on top... then plant your hostas and water them either with a drip hose system or just by regularly watering. The garden fabric won't stop the tree roots from invading the new bed, but it will slow it down. Newspapers would do the same, though they would retard the drainage a little more.

Once the plants are established, I think they'd be able to compete with the roots of the trees you've got there. I'm a hosta guy, so that's what I'd have there.

On the other hand, Chris named some great no-care ground covers that you could plant in drifts to make a lovely little woodland garden.

Epimediums are great. I don't know why they are so expensive (by my standards) - find somebody who has some and let them give you divisions... though primarily green, they have neat leaf shapes and will often get red in the leaves in both spring and fall.

Some tiarellas make clumps, others are runners. The traditional t. cordifolia is an invasive runner, though it is easy to pull back into boundaries. One of my favorites is Royal Tapestry, which has some leaf markings and, though it is a cordifolia (runner) it isn't as rampant as some of the others.

On the sunnier edges, some of the small sedums would be great ground covers.

I would accent with some larger accent plants... cimicifugas, particularly some of the reddish ones. Toward the back, maybe a rogersia - they don't get too tall, but they have huge interesting compound leaves. A drift of daffodils would bloom before the trees leaf out.

About the deer... there are lots of rotten-egg and pepper based homemade sprays. The simple alternative is to buy Liquid Fence concentrate and follow their directions. You'd spray once in early spring, then again in a week... and then once a month. There's plenty of forage around you for the deer - Liquid Fence effectively steers them away from your plants to the neighbors.