The gardening problem of the century!

vintagedude · Post by **vintagedude** » Oct 01, 2006 12:13 pm

My front yard does very well luckily, but the back yard is another story, particularly in the big flower bed between the house and back walk.
Remember the Sam Kinneson comedy routine?...
"Nothing grows here!!!!!!! Nothing's gonna grow here!!!!!!"
I knew that the soil wasn't the greatest, but I've successfully grown things in pure dry hard clay before at my previous house. You just select tough plants and nurture them until they root in. Not so here. It's like little munchkins come out at night with flamethrowers and bottles of sulfuric acid.
I've tried the toughest plants I could think of and nurtured them through the season only to have them croak with alarming rapidity and regularity. Here's a list....
Fountain grass, mondo grass, barberry, nandinas, black eyed susans, echinecia, monarda, mexican hat, mums, cleome, boxwood, hollies, hen and chicks, zinnias, blue indigo, dianthus, bachelor button, snake plant, sunflowers, and peonies.
I may have left out a few.

Seeds won't germinate or die after a slow, sickly start. Potted plants curl up and die. Cannas grow there but only reach 2 feet and never bloom.

The only things that have survived and done well....
Daylilies
Prickly pear
Gaillardia.

That's it!

What the bloody hell could be wrong with this bed?? I'm thinking about putting out tombstones instead next year and making it into a plant cemetary. The way things have gone the stones will probably turn brown and fall over.
On the other side of the patio steps from this bed I carved out a small new bed in which everything has done very well, so I know it's not just the area. And I consider myself a fairly experienced gardener.
I'd love to hear any and all theories! Thanks!
Cap'n Tim

impatience · Post by **impatience** » Oct 01, 2006 1:06 pm

Gardening in OK sucks?

I will be interested in answers myself. I have an area right by the front door like that. I have amended and amended for 16 years. I have tried everything too.

John · Post by **John** » Oct 01, 2006 5:58 pm

I have a spot like that, and found that sempervivums and sedums...survived. You've already tried hens-and-chicks, so that's not it.

I did have luck with Echinops, and they look good with daylilies, adding some blue color. Daylilies do work under those conditions, once established.

I used various thymes as edgings, they thrived.

Border of ice-plant worked.

Achillea will grow, but far too invasive.

A Hibiscus syricacus did not die, but seems stunted and has not bloomed; its flat-mate is about ten feet tall and full of flowers in another location.

Oh, Siberian Iris, again once established, work.

Good luck, will be reading others' replies for more ideas myself!

vintagedude · Post by **vintagedude** » Oct 01, 2006 9:12 pm

Me too. Oh and I also killed a Hardy Hibiscus in that bed! I planted its mate out in the yard next to the garage in the middle of July where it competes with the Bermuda and it's thriving. I've had Ice Plant before (at my old house) and really liked it so I may try that. Surely it has a chance if the Prickly Pear is doing well.
Impatience, counting my vote that makes two for 'gardening in OK sucks'!

This is right below the back patio. My mom grew up in this house back in the 1940's so I have some early info on it. My Grandmother used to mop the kitchen floors with bleach and would just dump the bucket over the back rail near where this bed is. It was probably done up through the 1970's. Is it possible the area is still bleach poisoned?
Also, it is surrounded by concrete: Driveway, sidewalk, patio, house foundation. It dries out quickly in the summer but in the heavier spring rains it floods.
These could possibly be coming together to create the problem.

John · Post by **John** » Oct 01, 2006 10:51 pm

I think bleach quickly breaks down into chlorine gas and dissipates, so probably not the culprit.

You mention spring floods in that same area: that could be a problem! Plants suitable for growing under the conditions described would be the same plants that would easily rot during a period of too much rain.

I've tried amending my difficult area, but it is like the ground swallows up the additions and reverts to normal, even growing crops of stones on the surface.

Maybe a nice raised bed. Or gravel, with a good collection of containerized plants. I'd still attempt the challenge of finding plants to grow in the ground though, myself!

vintagedude · Post by **vintagedude** » Oct 02, 2006 5:51 am

And that's likely the case. It sops up moisture so quickly in the summer that I have leaned toward plants that are drought tolerant. I would have thought that Prickly Pear would rot too, but it has proven to be extremely tolerant and adaptable to almost any condition. I had thought about raising the bed and filling it with good soil but I'm like you, I like the challange of trying to find something that will survive under the current conditions without pampering or major alterations.
At this point I'm thinking of putting in some big sandstones in the center and surrounding it with more hardy cacti and filling the bed with different varieties of Gaillardia. Perhaps a few more daylilies. I've had a devil of a time growing coneflowers from seed but, for variety, maybe I can try planting mature potted ones and see what happens.
Thanks John!

Ed_B · Post by **Ed_B** » Oct 02, 2006 6:56 am

You can grow daylily's? whats the problem?

maidofshade · Post by **maidofshade** » Oct 02, 2006 5:36 pm

I would think that the raised bed idea is the best. We also have a small spot in our yard where nothing will grow. We once had a fire ring there and something bad must have leached into the soil. I am going to raise the level of the soil in that area. Right now I have added composted manure and about 6 inches of mulch. The plants that are there are just hanging on. Whatever survives will be moved out to make way for more soil and then put back to see what happens.
By the way it is also clay.
Just a thought. Sometimes you just have to start over with an area.

Cheryl

vintagedude · Post by **vintagedude** » Oct 02, 2006 7:03 pm

I love daylilies, but they just don't bloom long enough. I actually have pulled everything out, tilled it clean, amended and started over three times. Same result. I may end up having to go the raised bed route. Thanks for the suggestions, at least I know I'm not the only one who has had this problem.

putnamgardens · Post by **putnamgardens** » Oct 02, 2006 9:48 pm

I remember Sam's comedy skit vividly.
"You know how to help those starving people.....Don't send'm money for food...there is no food. Send'm LUGGAGE, They live in a Freaking dessert."
I miss Sam. He sure could make me laugh. I'm going to paint some flat stones that read "Grow Damit". My growing season is about over. Later, Love, Lisa

Wanda · Post by **Wanda** » Oct 03, 2006 8:49 am

You may want to take some soil samples to your local county Extension agent for testing...you may have a ph problem - either too alkaline or too acid. Or, since this area has been used for a long time, the soil may be seriously depleted of nutrients or certain micro-nutrients, or overloaded with the same. Or someone could have spilled something in that area years ago, poisoning the soil: old fuels, chemicals, herbicides, paints, etc. A good soil test will be able to tell you if you have any of these conditions.

If the soil test comes out ok, it may be a soil structure problem. If people used to walk a lot in this area or park vehicles there, the ground could be too compacted to allow water, air or nutrients to penetrate to a useful depth. Or it may be that “OK hardpan” I keep hearing about?

If you really want to garden in this spot, you may have to do some serious soil amending or just build raised beds with good soil - and then refresh it annually. I have great sandy soil with wonderful structure and drainage...but I still have to add leafmould and composted manure every year to maintain a good rate of growth in my garden plants. Nothing in this life worth having is without effort (hehe). Either that, or get a list of native plants from the Extension agent and learn to love those that will grow there.

wanda

John · Post by **John** » Oct 03, 2006 10:21 am

Hey Cap'n Tim,

What is the exposure of this problem bed? I am guessing South-West...

John

vintagedude · Post by **vintagedude** » Oct 03, 2006 11:55 pm

Very close John! It's due West. Morning shade, afternoon sun. The worst combination of course.

Good advice Wanda. If I get a chance I'd be curious to see what a soil test turns up. It's not particularly compacted and was never parked on or a traffic area, but as far as old spills I'm not sure. It has been worked quite a bit so should be loose enough, though it's still far from loose and sandy.
Right on Lisa! Sam might have been a bit blue and a bit crazy but he was the funniest! And I have used much stronger language with this particular bed.

I've tried native plants and even most of them refuse to grow. The only exception being Gaillardia which thrives like crazy for some reason. I like attractive but low maintenance gardens so it's starting to look like this is going to be a Cactus/Gaillardia bed!

John · Post by **John** » Oct 04, 2006 10:26 am

There are some amazing new Gaillardia, and I think they combine well with Prickly Pear Cactus. Daylilies can be selected for a long season of bloom: I'd recommend the species Hemerocallis dumorterii and H. flava (lemon lily) for very early, then the roadside H. fulva (yes, it will be gorgeous with the other bold plants); add some hybrids of your preference; then end up the very late season with some H. altissima hybrids like 'Challenger', 'Statuesque' or my favorite, 'Autumn Minaret'. These last can be 5 or 6 feet tall, great for flowers at eye level and back (or center) of the bed/border.

vintagedude · Post by **vintagedude** » Oct 06, 2006 5:57 am

Thanks John! I'll make a note of those and try them in the spring. I know it won't be a wasted effort as it appears dailillies can grow literally anywhere, under any condition.

My favorite Gaillardia thus far is the one with the ruffled trumpet-shaped petals. Blooms almost constantly for nearly 9 months. I'll be planting more of those next year as well.

whis4ey · Post by **whis4ey** » Oct 06, 2006 8:52 am

Raising the level of the bed is definitely the best idea
I have had a number of problem areas through the years. Two in particular spring to mind ... the first was (affectionately??) called ' the dead bed'
The second was 'the mud patch'
Both now grow plants quite happily
The first is the 'dead bed'

The second is the 'mud patch'

vintagedude · Post by **vintagedude** » Oct 06, 2006 9:57 pm

Hey Sam how's it going?!
The Dead Bed, I like that! Describes mine perfectly. In the spring it's the mud patch, and in the summer/fall it's the patch 'O concrete!

Those are sure beauties you have now!

Linda P · Post by **Linda P** » Oct 08, 2006 8:54 am

Hey, Tim....nothing much to add, just wanted to say hi.
Good advice from Wanda to get the soil tested. That was my first thought.
I was thinking that you might just be on to something with the gravel bed. Maybe you can put in a bunch of interesting rocks in groups, and then make some planting pockets where you take out the old soil and replace it. Or, just go with the flow, and plant that combination of things that do grow there throughout. I have daylilies blooming here from early June through September. Even the ubiquitous Stella d'Oro looks good when there's nothing else that will grow in a spot. And, it blooms for a long period of time. I have a couple plants just about to bloom again...will probably have some flowers open today.
Have you tried any native asters for fall bloom? They seem to grow just about anywhere, from the bog in my back pasture, to the chalky roadside areas where little else grows. They do seed about a bit, but I don't find that offensive.
Do weeds grow there? I'm thinkin' if the weeds don't grow, you may be out of luck...

Linda P

vintagedude · Post by **vintagedude** » Oct 08, 2006 9:20 am

Hi Linda!

Yes I tried asters twice because they are such tough little buggers but most of the seed never germinated and what did, came out small and weak, growing slowly and dying without blooming. The clover that once took over the yard grows there, but not rampantly and no other weeds spring up either. Could be a bad sign!

There is a native here from which the Cleome was hybridized called clammyweed. I liked it and transplanted two from a rocky gravel roadside to my old flowerbed at my previous house where they spread at an alarming rate. They even sprang up in a plastic pot on the hot metal deck of my houseboat for the short time I lived on it.
I tried them here. The old seed dropped in that plastic pot (now on my porch) produced three foot tall, multi branched plants that bloomed for many months... The seed (hundreds) I put in the dead-bed produced 3 whispy two inch plants that never bloomed then died after a month.
I'm definately getting that soil test as soon as I can take a break from work. I have an overwhelming curiosity.

John · Post by **John** » Oct 08, 2006 10:32 am

Would have recommended Cleome, had I thought of it. They will grow anywhere... or not, apparently.

vintagedude, I also lived on a houseboat, for 9 years! Learned a lot about container gardening...

Linda P: good advice to "go with the flow" and plant what does grow there. I like the gravel and rocks idea, maybe even a dry stream-bed... then there would only need be some accent plants, which could be grown in containers sunk into the ground, and perhaps changed seasonally.