I agree with Butch on this part... 'unwritten rules' is not a good idea.
Make a charter, assure the AHS adopts it and publishes it.
That's much better and certainly clearer than some judgement on the morality of others...
TC Disappointed or not
Moderators: ViolaAnn, redcrx, Chris_W
A Hosta a Day :http://hostatalk.blogspot.com/
The problem with unwritten rules is that everyone's idea of right isn't the same. That's why we need rules in the first place because some people think that something is right when the majority see it as wrong.
Assuming that we are all coming from the same position often leads to misunderstandings, miscommunication, frustrations and a lack of progress.
MollyD
Assuming that we are all coming from the same position often leads to misunderstandings, miscommunication, frustrations and a lack of progress.
MollyD
MollyD's Hosta list
Lat: 42.89N, Lon: 77.28W
Lat: 42.89N, Lon: 77.28W
I only speak for myself, do you recognize any line you feel is blurry for me that you would care to address?Are you a spokesman for some group that has trouble with the right vs. wrong thing and needs it spelled out for every situation? Do you have specific instances to discuss in which you find the line too blurry?
Conflict is as addictive as
Cocaine, Alcohol, Cigarettes
I’m sorry to report
That cooperation is not
Cocaine, Alcohol, Cigarettes
I’m sorry to report
That cooperation is not
-
Bill Meyer
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Feb 17, 2003 3:18 pm
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Hi Molly and Sugar,
I disagree. In every society there is a fairly clear and well-interpreted sense of right and wrong. Most of the fundamentals go back thousands of years. The human race is rarely found without a set of morals and ethics, whether they follow them or not. These systems have been developed so that people can live together in a society without constant me-first abrasion. Essentially they require fair treatment of others and cause the community to frown upon antisocial (against the community) or asocial (me first, the heck with everybody else) behavior. Without society, we'd all be living in caves trying to steal fire from the neighbor.
There is the old debate about whether government should legislate morality, which is what you are arguing. It is a question of degree. With hostas it is illegal here in the US to sell disease infected plants, to steal plants or commit fraud to get them, to violate patents and a few other things. These are considered the most serious violations and rate formal punishment from society. Should we have laws and formal punishment for even the slightest of immoral or unethical (which the above all are) actions? I don't believe any society yet has gone so far.
I accept that sometimes it can be tricky to decide what is the right thing in a particular situation, but to try to map out all possible situations and reach a consensus as to what is right in each would be a herculean task. To start we'd need a large open forum of some kind where all interested parties could participate. Does anyone who would advocate this want to try to get it started? Or is that just a way to say "since we don't all agree on every last detail it means we don't agree on anything, so there aren't really any morals or ethics"?
Because there might be legitimate questions about right and wrong in a few circumstances, is that a reason to say we don't know what it is in any circumstances? We do know in most circumstances, and you know that. Sometimes there are culture clashes where differences between cultures in their moral codes cause friction, but that isn't really what we're talking about.
We all make judgments on the morality of others, and I don't know why we say otherwise. It is a normal part of human interaction. We do it to protect ourselves and those we care about. We avoid dealing with those we think are dishonest or predatory, even to the point of pre-judgment. Prejudice is often just a throw of the dice and often wrong, but judging after knowing is different and we all do that. It would be foolish not to, even though we are not always right.
........Bill Meyer
I disagree. In every society there is a fairly clear and well-interpreted sense of right and wrong. Most of the fundamentals go back thousands of years. The human race is rarely found without a set of morals and ethics, whether they follow them or not. These systems have been developed so that people can live together in a society without constant me-first abrasion. Essentially they require fair treatment of others and cause the community to frown upon antisocial (against the community) or asocial (me first, the heck with everybody else) behavior. Without society, we'd all be living in caves trying to steal fire from the neighbor.
There is the old debate about whether government should legislate morality, which is what you are arguing. It is a question of degree. With hostas it is illegal here in the US to sell disease infected plants, to steal plants or commit fraud to get them, to violate patents and a few other things. These are considered the most serious violations and rate formal punishment from society. Should we have laws and formal punishment for even the slightest of immoral or unethical (which the above all are) actions? I don't believe any society yet has gone so far.
I accept that sometimes it can be tricky to decide what is the right thing in a particular situation, but to try to map out all possible situations and reach a consensus as to what is right in each would be a herculean task. To start we'd need a large open forum of some kind where all interested parties could participate. Does anyone who would advocate this want to try to get it started? Or is that just a way to say "since we don't all agree on every last detail it means we don't agree on anything, so there aren't really any morals or ethics"?
Because there might be legitimate questions about right and wrong in a few circumstances, is that a reason to say we don't know what it is in any circumstances? We do know in most circumstances, and you know that. Sometimes there are culture clashes where differences between cultures in their moral codes cause friction, but that isn't really what we're talking about.
We all make judgments on the morality of others, and I don't know why we say otherwise. It is a normal part of human interaction. We do it to protect ourselves and those we care about. We avoid dealing with those we think are dishonest or predatory, even to the point of pre-judgment. Prejudice is often just a throw of the dice and often wrong, but judging after knowing is different and we all do that. It would be foolish not to, even though we are not always right.
........Bill Meyer
If you thought the auction was fun, come to the meeting!
-
Bill Meyer
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Feb 17, 2003 3:18 pm
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Hi Butch,
......Bill Meyer
It isn't for me to say. If you have something that you want to discuss with the group it is your choice. If you are truly stuck with the right or wrong issue on something maybe talking to others would help you with it.I only speak for myself, do you recognize any line you feel is blurry for me that you would care to address?
......Bill Meyer
If you thought the auction was fun, come to the meeting!
I think Bill that if you can get 13 colonies to agree on the terms for becoming a country that it should be relatively simple to formulate rules for hostas being offered for tc. Next to the first tc seems relatively trivial.
Those in the know who normally run the AHS sit down and formulate the do's and don'ts. They offer these to the membership to vote on and voila you've got written rules to operate by which everyone understands. It doesn't seem overwhelming complicated to me.
MollyD
Those in the know who normally run the AHS sit down and formulate the do's and don'ts. They offer these to the membership to vote on and voila you've got written rules to operate by which everyone understands. It doesn't seem overwhelming complicated to me.
MollyD
MollyD's Hosta list
Lat: 42.89N, Lon: 77.28W
Lat: 42.89N, Lon: 77.28W
I’m going to list several times you say what I take as everyone knows what is right and wrong. Then go on to then define the right and wrong with consequences. My question is; if we all know right from wrong why are you instructing us?
In every society there is a fairly clear and well-interpreted sense of right and wrong.
We do know in most circumstances what is right from wrong,
and you know that.
I know what you're unhappy about. Every time I go to the supermarket people are getting one price with a card and another with coupons and some without either pay 2-3 times as much for the same thing from the same shelf. It just seems wrong.
Don't forget that commandment about coveting thy neighbor's property (the tenth I think).
I don't understand those who want things but won't make an honest and legitimate effort to get them.
In the absence of such protection we have what is essentially an honor system. Can honor systems work?
Either we accept bad behavior by continuing to buy plants from or trade with those who violate the unwritten rules and make those rules worthless, or we decide that those rules are something we want to stand on.
Conflict is as addictive as
Cocaine, Alcohol, Cigarettes
I’m sorry to report
That cooperation is not
Cocaine, Alcohol, Cigarettes
I’m sorry to report
That cooperation is not
-
Bill Meyer
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Feb 17, 2003 3:18 pm
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Hi Molly,
The AHS (which I think has less than 3,000 members) would in no way be involved is such an endeavor. They stay strictly out of anything like that. I once asked if they could throw a member out for serious (criminal actually) behavior against other members and was told the bylaws don't allow them to throw any member out no matter what they do. Presumably you could steal the treasury and remain a member. You've probably guessed I don't agree.
I am on the AHS Board and I doubt I could even get them to agree to make suggestions like introducers should have a terms of sale agreement whenever they sell their own plants.
I wasn't strictly talking about the TC thing, but even then it could take quite a bit of hashing out. Even if you could get them to do it, it would be strictly voluntary, which would mean it wouldn't really be any different. Those who would want to violate the policies would still do so. I don't think it would mean anything to them without fear of punishment. People who try to prey financially on others don't tend to read things like ethical recommendations as a rule. There are people who only judge the risk vs. the reward and don't consider anything else.
But still all this is because we are saying people aren't good enough to live without more and more restrictions legal and otherwise. Personally I think we are but I understand there are a few bad apples in every group. It's how we all react to the bad apples that will decide where we go. If we tolerate it more apples will spoil as the adage goes. It won't be long before people say "Everybody else is doing it and there aren't any laws against it". We're not there yet, actually we've retreated away from that in recent years towards more ethical behavior with TC. Contrast it to the HVX situation where the you see unapologetic unethical behavior all over the place in spite of there actually being laws.
.......Bill Meyer
The AHS (which I think has less than 3,000 members) would in no way be involved is such an endeavor. They stay strictly out of anything like that. I once asked if they could throw a member out for serious (criminal actually) behavior against other members and was told the bylaws don't allow them to throw any member out no matter what they do. Presumably you could steal the treasury and remain a member. You've probably guessed I don't agree.
I am on the AHS Board and I doubt I could even get them to agree to make suggestions like introducers should have a terms of sale agreement whenever they sell their own plants.
I wasn't strictly talking about the TC thing, but even then it could take quite a bit of hashing out. Even if you could get them to do it, it would be strictly voluntary, which would mean it wouldn't really be any different. Those who would want to violate the policies would still do so. I don't think it would mean anything to them without fear of punishment. People who try to prey financially on others don't tend to read things like ethical recommendations as a rule. There are people who only judge the risk vs. the reward and don't consider anything else.
But still all this is because we are saying people aren't good enough to live without more and more restrictions legal and otherwise. Personally I think we are but I understand there are a few bad apples in every group. It's how we all react to the bad apples that will decide where we go. If we tolerate it more apples will spoil as the adage goes. It won't be long before people say "Everybody else is doing it and there aren't any laws against it". We're not there yet, actually we've retreated away from that in recent years towards more ethical behavior with TC. Contrast it to the HVX situation where the you see unapologetic unethical behavior all over the place in spite of there actually being laws.
.......Bill Meyer
If you thought the auction was fun, come to the meeting!
I'm very fortunate to have a church family, family and other friends, I've studied several other religions and philosophies. I'm very comfortable with my morals and ethics. Yet, I did wonder if you had something specific to address.It isn't for me to say. If you have something that you want to discuss with the group it is your choice. If you are truly stuck with the right or wrong issue on something maybe talking to others would help you with it.
At 67 I’m fairly shun tolerant so consequences for my behavior past or present is not a big concern of mine but I’m open to learn.
Conflict is as addictive as
Cocaine, Alcohol, Cigarettes
I’m sorry to report
That cooperation is not
Cocaine, Alcohol, Cigarettes
I’m sorry to report
That cooperation is not
-
Bill Meyer
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Feb 17, 2003 3:18 pm
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Hi Butch,
I don't know why you want to discuss things you have done in the past. If continually bringing them up in public is a sign you feel the need to then go ahead and tell everybody. Perhaps confession is truly good for the soul.
.........Bill Meyer
I don't know why you want to discuss things you have done in the past. If continually bringing them up in public is a sign you feel the need to then go ahead and tell everybody. Perhaps confession is truly good for the soul.
.........Bill Meyer
If you thought the auction was fun, come to the meeting!
Bill and all,
I think Moliere (1622) said it best: "Things are only worth what you make them worth."
The original question was to TC or not to TC.
Ethical and to some extent moral issues are muddying the original question.
We've all bought plants or traded plants with businesses and people who were maybe not as truthful or that misrepresented the plants (like whether or not they are virused).
The key is whether or not the person corrects the problem ... and if not that we learned a lesson not to deal with that person anymore.
I still agree with Moliere and with Molly D ... we make a thing have worth because it is something we desire or want. Whatever we pay for it be it money or time or whatever, is what we consider it's worth to us at the time of the acquisition.
Helen
I think Moliere (1622) said it best: "Things are only worth what you make them worth."
The original question was to TC or not to TC.
Ethical and to some extent moral issues are muddying the original question.
We've all bought plants or traded plants with businesses and people who were maybe not as truthful or that misrepresented the plants (like whether or not they are virused).
The key is whether or not the person corrects the problem ... and if not that we learned a lesson not to deal with that person anymore.
I still agree with Moliere and with Molly D ... we make a thing have worth because it is something we desire or want. Whatever we pay for it be it money or time or whatever, is what we consider it's worth to us at the time of the acquisition.
Helen
A day without laughter AND gardening is a day wasted ... oh ... and be kind to your children ... they will choose your nursing home!
-
Hosta12_Ia
- Posts: 757
- Joined: Oct 12, 2001 8:00 pm
- Location: Iowa
-
Bill Meyer
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Feb 17, 2003 3:18 pm
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Hi Butch,
I suppose this is the conflict you find addictive. Whatever your game is I'm not interested in playing. Tell them or don't it isn't my problem. You're the one who can't stop talking about it, so I was just thinking maybe you weren't as comfortable with it as you say. It's your life, not mine.
.........Bill Meyer
I suppose this is the conflict you find addictive. Whatever your game is I'm not interested in playing. Tell them or don't it isn't my problem. You're the one who can't stop talking about it, so I was just thinking maybe you weren't as comfortable with it as you say. It's your life, not mine.
.........Bill Meyer
If you thought the auction was fun, come to the meeting!
-
scootersbear
- Posts: 900
- Joined: Sep 12, 2002 8:00 pm
- Location: colorado
Definitely staying away from the moral issues thats being stated here because to each their own.
So I'm staying on the origional to TC or not to TC
Bill I've kept all the records of the FL auctions so already knew the answer
I dug out the records and found that 'Katsuragawa Beni' went for $300 as the highest bid. There were 6 more over $200. The highest a plant ever went for in one of our auctions was $1500 for 'Lakeside Treasure Chest'.
Not sure what point it may prove, but KB is now a $15 plant available anywhere or soon will be. Two of the other $200+ plants are also now available for reasonable prices while the other three (two of one were donated) remain scarce and likely high-priced. [quote]
That person should have put their money in the bank and earned the minimal 2%. I've seen too many of these plants auctioned then TC'd making them a waste of money. Little Red Rooster was being sold on ebay for "buy it now" $18 the same time it was being auctioned good cause or not the person who won that hosta had to be PO'd when they found out. TC'ing is getting more efficent and faster and will continue to as advances are made and will make collecting hostas valueless both in worth and collectability. You have nearly half a chance or more that a high priced hosta will be TC'd do to peoples need to make money. Dorothy Benedict going for $50 thats a true shame for a hosta that defined true hosta standards for collecting. It was my true and know many others most valued hosta for breeding and collectability because not everybody had it Too bad everybody will have it in a few years, hybridizing it will have no value
So I'm staying on the origional to TC or not to TC
Bill I've kept all the records of the FL auctions so already knew the answer
I dug out the records and found that 'Katsuragawa Beni' went for $300 as the highest bid. There were 6 more over $200. The highest a plant ever went for in one of our auctions was $1500 for 'Lakeside Treasure Chest'.
Not sure what point it may prove, but KB is now a $15 plant available anywhere or soon will be. Two of the other $200+ plants are also now available for reasonable prices while the other three (two of one were donated) remain scarce and likely high-priced. [quote]
That person should have put their money in the bank and earned the minimal 2%. I've seen too many of these plants auctioned then TC'd making them a waste of money. Little Red Rooster was being sold on ebay for "buy it now" $18 the same time it was being auctioned good cause or not the person who won that hosta had to be PO'd when they found out. TC'ing is getting more efficent and faster and will continue to as advances are made and will make collecting hostas valueless both in worth and collectability. You have nearly half a chance or more that a high priced hosta will be TC'd do to peoples need to make money. Dorothy Benedict going for $50 thats a true shame for a hosta that defined true hosta standards for collecting. It was my true and know many others most valued hosta for breeding and collectability because not everybody had it Too bad everybody will have it in a few years, hybridizing it will have no value
Bill,
What is happening in the hosta world with TCs is no different than what is happening with intellectual material since the internet.
How do I as a writer protect someone in say, Eastern New Mexico, from paraphrasing something I've written and then gaining notoriety for what they wrote based on my intellectual material?
Or how do I monitor millions of internet users to keep them from claiming my intellectual material or (if I'm a publisher) from acquiring that intellectual material from my clients and claiming it as their own?
As I said in my previous post and paraphrasing Moliere here ... we make a thing have value because we attach a value to it.
Technically everything is an investment. I invest in a marriage, I invest in my children, ... what I invest in my husband and children is my love and time and to some extent what I could accomplish if I was say ... single ...
As with all investments you take your chances ... and investing in stocks is just as iffy because of external forces as raising a child is who perhaps gets into trouble by the acquaintances he has or so-called friends he/she keeps.
I can do all I can to try to minimize the damage with a set of rules or regulations. However, the choice is theirs ... just like the choice is in the hands of a purchaser of hosta.
In a perfect world we would have no problem.
But things are not perfect, therefor the eternal struggle.
You said: "I don't see this as an eternal struggle which will never be resolved but rather as a situation of poor protection from the legal system that has been knocked out of balance by the arrival of tissue culture. I think as we go we are resolving it, but that resolution is never as clear as it would be if the plants had automatic legal protection."
Everyday there are patent lawsuits and actors suing magazines for using unauthorized photos and writers claiming that someone else stole their idea ...
I think we are closer to an agreement but are approaching this from different starting positions.
Honor systems are great if all persons are honorable. That's where the ethical and moral issues come in to muddy up the question to TC or not to TC.
You stated: "There will always be those who try to cheat in an honor system, and how successful they are at it depends mostly on how strong the reaction is from those who follow the rules. If everyone just ignores it or tolerates it with a wink at such risque behavior, it will fail and descend into a get-what-you-can-however-you-can free-for-all. If that person is ostracized to a significant degree, the honor system can function well for the benefit of all involved."
I agree with you when you said: "We have a little of both now and it's hard to say whether the future will be one of honorable dealings or open piracy. This isn't something one person or group can dictate, it's up to the whole society. Either we accept bad behavior by continuing to buy plants from or trade with those who violate the unwritten rules and make those rules worthless, or we decide that those rules are something we want to stand on."
In other words we need to police ourselves as buyers ...
It's the same with the marketplace for anything we buy. Is that full-length mink coat something I want to purchase or do I find wearing fur abhorrent?
Do I want to spend my money on a hosta and pay $1,500 for it or do I want to wait a bit and see if I can get it for less?
I have seen predatory businesses come and go because people get the idea rather quickly and word gets around that the business is not as trustworthy as it should be.
The same can be said about some hosta growers.
Yes, laws are to protect people from predatory behavior ... but what if the seller is unaware that the person they bought their TCs from stole a valuable plant from a collector or hybridizer?
Do we punish the TC'er or the person who stole a valuable plant from a collector or hybridizer in the first place.
That's where legal precedence will help resolve those questions.
I agreed that "For an honor system to work, it has to be accepted that breaking the rules is wrong, but there also has to be social consequences." And that assumes that everyone is honorable which we know is not the case.
And what is the difference between selling a virus-hosta and a used car with a faulty engine? Morally there is no difference except that the virus-hosta will just make your garden uglier ... the faulty engine could kill you if it seizes up while on the expressway.
We all know that car dealers shouldn't sell faulty cars and they do anyway.
I agree: "How much we don't like it may be all that determines how long they keep doing it. Even though there are laws in that area. it is behaving more like an honor system. The difference is that if we are mad enough we can turn them in to their local agriculture departments."
I never said that I was accepting it, only that in the question of to TC or not to TC the moral and ethical questions come into play.
I also agree "Don't accept it if you don't want to see more of it, because bad behavior won't go away if everybody accepts it."
Everytime there is something new on the market there is a gray area legally until legal precedence is established.
Hosta TC or not to TC is in that gray area ... as you and others have said.
I do tend to question your statement that business is generally predatory ... what I might consider a good deal purchase might seem price gouging to another buyer.
Whatever the market will bear ... whatever the buyer is willing to pay for something they want or desire.
I'm not saying that I want an anything goes society ... I am saying that all of this eventually boils down to an educated buyer and what he/she is willing to pay to get what he she wants or desires.
I agree that "I don't expect the legal system to provide much help in this area beyond the existing laws against outright theft, selling diseased plants, or patent violation. Maybe we'll see something along the lines of a copyright, but I don't know if there is much incentive for lawmakers to move on that. The rest is up to all of us, and as someone once said - a society always gets what it wants because if it isn't happy with what it has it changes it."
I just want it understood that any law is only as good as it's enforcement and whether or not the criminal gets caught. We don't like a thief, we don't want to be a thief, we don't want to become thieves.
Jaime,
Each of us comes to this discussion from a different viewpoint.
I see my purchase of a hosta not as an investment but as a purchase. I rarely trade and I have never sold a hosta (although I have received postage) ... if I use my hosta to make money then my hobby becomes a business to me.
I understand what you are saying when you state "I also choose to invest my money in hostas and not stocks. I also want to hand what I've got to my kids later in life in hope that they could sell some in the future to help with college costs, so to me it's a investment."
From my perspective my 20-something aged children could care less about any of the garden plants I have or had ... they perceive no personal "worth" in gardening or selling plants ... so to them I've been rather foolish with my money. Personally I cannot image life without a garden ... even if it's one pot sitting on a balcony it has worth to me.
There are other things my children desire and want that have more value to them.
You seeing a hosta as an investment is no different than my perspective of seeing a hosta as a purchase for myself to enjoy in my garden. I desire the hosta to bring myself pleasure and I purchase hosta at the price I want to pay for it.
Thank you all for this thread. It's been a long time since I've read or discussed these types of issues. I certainly have enjoyed every moment.
Helen
What is happening in the hosta world with TCs is no different than what is happening with intellectual material since the internet.
How do I as a writer protect someone in say, Eastern New Mexico, from paraphrasing something I've written and then gaining notoriety for what they wrote based on my intellectual material?
Or how do I monitor millions of internet users to keep them from claiming my intellectual material or (if I'm a publisher) from acquiring that intellectual material from my clients and claiming it as their own?
As I said in my previous post and paraphrasing Moliere here ... we make a thing have value because we attach a value to it.
Technically everything is an investment. I invest in a marriage, I invest in my children, ... what I invest in my husband and children is my love and time and to some extent what I could accomplish if I was say ... single ...
As with all investments you take your chances ... and investing in stocks is just as iffy because of external forces as raising a child is who perhaps gets into trouble by the acquaintances he has or so-called friends he/she keeps.
I can do all I can to try to minimize the damage with a set of rules or regulations. However, the choice is theirs ... just like the choice is in the hands of a purchaser of hosta.
In a perfect world we would have no problem.
But things are not perfect, therefor the eternal struggle.
You said: "I don't see this as an eternal struggle which will never be resolved but rather as a situation of poor protection from the legal system that has been knocked out of balance by the arrival of tissue culture. I think as we go we are resolving it, but that resolution is never as clear as it would be if the plants had automatic legal protection."
Everyday there are patent lawsuits and actors suing magazines for using unauthorized photos and writers claiming that someone else stole their idea ...
I think we are closer to an agreement but are approaching this from different starting positions.
Honor systems are great if all persons are honorable. That's where the ethical and moral issues come in to muddy up the question to TC or not to TC.
You stated: "There will always be those who try to cheat in an honor system, and how successful they are at it depends mostly on how strong the reaction is from those who follow the rules. If everyone just ignores it or tolerates it with a wink at such risque behavior, it will fail and descend into a get-what-you-can-however-you-can free-for-all. If that person is ostracized to a significant degree, the honor system can function well for the benefit of all involved."
I agree with you when you said: "We have a little of both now and it's hard to say whether the future will be one of honorable dealings or open piracy. This isn't something one person or group can dictate, it's up to the whole society. Either we accept bad behavior by continuing to buy plants from or trade with those who violate the unwritten rules and make those rules worthless, or we decide that those rules are something we want to stand on."
In other words we need to police ourselves as buyers ...
It's the same with the marketplace for anything we buy. Is that full-length mink coat something I want to purchase or do I find wearing fur abhorrent?
Do I want to spend my money on a hosta and pay $1,500 for it or do I want to wait a bit and see if I can get it for less?
I have seen predatory businesses come and go because people get the idea rather quickly and word gets around that the business is not as trustworthy as it should be.
The same can be said about some hosta growers.
Yes, laws are to protect people from predatory behavior ... but what if the seller is unaware that the person they bought their TCs from stole a valuable plant from a collector or hybridizer?
Do we punish the TC'er or the person who stole a valuable plant from a collector or hybridizer in the first place.
That's where legal precedence will help resolve those questions.
I agreed that "For an honor system to work, it has to be accepted that breaking the rules is wrong, but there also has to be social consequences." And that assumes that everyone is honorable which we know is not the case.
And what is the difference between selling a virus-hosta and a used car with a faulty engine? Morally there is no difference except that the virus-hosta will just make your garden uglier ... the faulty engine could kill you if it seizes up while on the expressway.
We all know that car dealers shouldn't sell faulty cars and they do anyway.
I agree: "How much we don't like it may be all that determines how long they keep doing it. Even though there are laws in that area. it is behaving more like an honor system. The difference is that if we are mad enough we can turn them in to their local agriculture departments."
I never said that I was accepting it, only that in the question of to TC or not to TC the moral and ethical questions come into play.
I also agree "Don't accept it if you don't want to see more of it, because bad behavior won't go away if everybody accepts it."
Everytime there is something new on the market there is a gray area legally until legal precedence is established.
Hosta TC or not to TC is in that gray area ... as you and others have said.
I do tend to question your statement that business is generally predatory ... what I might consider a good deal purchase might seem price gouging to another buyer.
Whatever the market will bear ... whatever the buyer is willing to pay for something they want or desire.
I'm not saying that I want an anything goes society ... I am saying that all of this eventually boils down to an educated buyer and what he/she is willing to pay to get what he she wants or desires.
I agree that "I don't expect the legal system to provide much help in this area beyond the existing laws against outright theft, selling diseased plants, or patent violation. Maybe we'll see something along the lines of a copyright, but I don't know if there is much incentive for lawmakers to move on that. The rest is up to all of us, and as someone once said - a society always gets what it wants because if it isn't happy with what it has it changes it."
I just want it understood that any law is only as good as it's enforcement and whether or not the criminal gets caught. We don't like a thief, we don't want to be a thief, we don't want to become thieves.
Jaime,
Each of us comes to this discussion from a different viewpoint.
I see my purchase of a hosta not as an investment but as a purchase. I rarely trade and I have never sold a hosta (although I have received postage) ... if I use my hosta to make money then my hobby becomes a business to me.
I understand what you are saying when you state "I also choose to invest my money in hostas and not stocks. I also want to hand what I've got to my kids later in life in hope that they could sell some in the future to help with college costs, so to me it's a investment."
From my perspective my 20-something aged children could care less about any of the garden plants I have or had ... they perceive no personal "worth" in gardening or selling plants ... so to them I've been rather foolish with my money. Personally I cannot image life without a garden ... even if it's one pot sitting on a balcony it has worth to me.
There are other things my children desire and want that have more value to them.
You seeing a hosta as an investment is no different than my perspective of seeing a hosta as a purchase for myself to enjoy in my garden. I desire the hosta to bring myself pleasure and I purchase hosta at the price I want to pay for it.
Thank you all for this thread. It's been a long time since I've read or discussed these types of issues. I certainly have enjoyed every moment.
Helen
A day without laughter AND gardening is a day wasted ... oh ... and be kind to your children ... they will choose your nursing home!
-
Bill Meyer
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Feb 17, 2003 3:18 pm
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Hi Helen,
To go further, they are worth different things to different people. Although in auctions we may slip a little higher in the excitement of the moment.
Actually I'm a little confused as to what the original question was. TC hostas are mostly the same as the originals these days. Sometimes they sport more which is probably the result of a division with some tiny unseen instability in it going into culture. Other times the hormone mix used may not react well and uneven or evenly poor growth results. Culling from the main quality labs is very good these days, which kind of spoils the fun for sport hunters.
Hi Scootersbear,
Even with the drop in value for KB, that person had a few years to trade or sell a piece before the cheap ones hit the market. Yes, TC has improved but there is still the issue of many more plants being introduced each year than are TCed. The TCed ones will never catch up, leaving plenty of OS-only plants out there. I would venture to guess that of the 5,000 or so named hostas (not all registered yet) that only 1,000 or so have ever been TCed. There will always be plenty of hostas the labs won't do, so there will always be collectables.
We try to do our part in the First Look Auction by enforcing agreements from the donor with banning from the auction for anybody who pulls a fast one. Now we add scarcity ratings to help give a fair idea of how many plants are out there. I was talking to Don Dean and he may do the same with the AHS Online Auction. Those of us who raise the funds want the collectors and the introducers to find a comfort range they can all live with. We will ban anybody who preys on donors in the FL auction, and it will be a public ban. I think we're going in the right direction. If there's more we can do, we're open to suggestions.
.........Bill Meyer
To go further, they are worth different things to different people. Although in auctions we may slip a little higher in the excitement of the moment.
Actually I'm a little confused as to what the original question was. TC hostas are mostly the same as the originals these days. Sometimes they sport more which is probably the result of a division with some tiny unseen instability in it going into culture. Other times the hormone mix used may not react well and uneven or evenly poor growth results. Culling from the main quality labs is very good these days, which kind of spoils the fun for sport hunters.
Hi Scootersbear,
Even with the drop in value for KB, that person had a few years to trade or sell a piece before the cheap ones hit the market. Yes, TC has improved but there is still the issue of many more plants being introduced each year than are TCed. The TCed ones will never catch up, leaving plenty of OS-only plants out there. I would venture to guess that of the 5,000 or so named hostas (not all registered yet) that only 1,000 or so have ever been TCed. There will always be plenty of hostas the labs won't do, so there will always be collectables.
We try to do our part in the First Look Auction by enforcing agreements from the donor with banning from the auction for anybody who pulls a fast one. Now we add scarcity ratings to help give a fair idea of how many plants are out there. I was talking to Don Dean and he may do the same with the AHS Online Auction. Those of us who raise the funds want the collectors and the introducers to find a comfort range they can all live with. We will ban anybody who preys on donors in the FL auction, and it will be a public ban. I think we're going in the right direction. If there's more we can do, we're open to suggestions.
.........Bill Meyer
If you thought the auction was fun, come to the meeting!
As Moliere might posit, the only value we place on this thread is what it is worth to those reading or participating.The original question was to TC or not to TC.
Lincoln said "People are just about as happy as they make up their minds to be."
My hope was a better understanding of the process would lead to more satisfaction.
Oh well, someone also said something about the “the best laid plans……
Fitzgerald offers
The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all they Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all they ‘Tears wash out a Word of it’
When I hit “submit” nothing will bring them back
Anyone may use or twist them to their purpose(s)
Conflict is as addictive as
Cocaine, Alcohol, Cigarettes
I’m sorry to report
That cooperation is not
Cocaine, Alcohol, Cigarettes
I’m sorry to report
That cooperation is not
Scooterbear!!!
Thank you for stating: "Definitely staying away from the moral issues thats being stated here because to each their own."
To TC or not to TC ... that is the question.
I think that someone already said that auctions are not always the true "test" of a hosta's worth.
Auctions are usually held as a fund-raiser. I help out at two auction/fund-raisers for environmental groups and I attend other fund-raiser/auctions. I often see bidders bid an item "up" because they want their money to go to a charitable cause and that tax-deduction is an added benefit to them.
So therefore .. the questions: "Is a plant more desireable because it received a high bid? Or, is a plant more desirable because it is a gardenworthy plant? And, when a particular hosta brings the gardener joy and contentment what is that worth?"
Scootersbear, you make a good point when you say:" I've seen too many of these plants auctioned then TC'd making them a waste of money. Little Red Rooster was being sold on ebay for "buy it now" $18 the same time it was being auctioned good cause or not the person who won that hosta had to be PO'd when they found out."
I do disagree that "TC'ing is getting more efficent and faster and will continue to as advances are made and will make collecting hostas valueless both in worth and collectability."
All hosta have value depending on the person purchasing the hosta ... sometimes the hosta is purchased due to economics (wanting to invest) and sometimes the hosta is purchased because a buyer wants a particular hosta in their garden to enjoy.
Breeder hosta have value to a hosta person who wants to hybridize. You mention Dorothy Benedict ... I, as a hosta collector have no desire to have it in my garden. To a hosta hybridizer it has value as a potential way of creating another spectacular hosta that will more likely than not be sold at the AHS auction at a high price.
All moral and ethical questions aside. It is a matter of perspective whether or not you are a investment collector or a hybridizer or just someone like me who loves hosta and collects them because I enjoy having them in my garden.
Helen
Thank you for stating: "Definitely staying away from the moral issues thats being stated here because to each their own."
To TC or not to TC ... that is the question.
I think that someone already said that auctions are not always the true "test" of a hosta's worth.
Auctions are usually held as a fund-raiser. I help out at two auction/fund-raisers for environmental groups and I attend other fund-raiser/auctions. I often see bidders bid an item "up" because they want their money to go to a charitable cause and that tax-deduction is an added benefit to them.
So therefore .. the questions: "Is a plant more desireable because it received a high bid? Or, is a plant more desirable because it is a gardenworthy plant? And, when a particular hosta brings the gardener joy and contentment what is that worth?"
Scootersbear, you make a good point when you say:" I've seen too many of these plants auctioned then TC'd making them a waste of money. Little Red Rooster was being sold on ebay for "buy it now" $18 the same time it was being auctioned good cause or not the person who won that hosta had to be PO'd when they found out."
I do disagree that "TC'ing is getting more efficent and faster and will continue to as advances are made and will make collecting hostas valueless both in worth and collectability."
All hosta have value depending on the person purchasing the hosta ... sometimes the hosta is purchased due to economics (wanting to invest) and sometimes the hosta is purchased because a buyer wants a particular hosta in their garden to enjoy.
Breeder hosta have value to a hosta person who wants to hybridize. You mention Dorothy Benedict ... I, as a hosta collector have no desire to have it in my garden. To a hosta hybridizer it has value as a potential way of creating another spectacular hosta that will more likely than not be sold at the AHS auction at a high price.
All moral and ethical questions aside. It is a matter of perspective whether or not you are a investment collector or a hybridizer or just someone like me who loves hosta and collects them because I enjoy having them in my garden.
Helen
Last edited by hagranger on Aug 12, 2007 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A day without laughter AND gardening is a day wasted ... oh ... and be kind to your children ... they will choose your nursing home!