A question on types of hostas

[redcrx]

Maybe that's the wrong question. Here's my problem: I have seen some hostas called sports of Fortunei (Francee) and some called sports of Fortunei Hyacinthina (Gold Standard & Whirlwind). And there are a few other Fortunei ... Are these genetically different or was there one "mother" plant?

[Tigger]

That's a good question, and I'm not sure that there's a definitive answer. 'Fortunei' is a hybrid of unclear parentage, but it may be that it comprises a set of related hostas, likely seedlings from some mother plant that were called H. fortunei var. xxx back when they thought Fortunei was a true species (that is, it should provide nearly identical seedlings when self-fertilized). As you note, there are at least two branches: the Hyacinthina branch, from which we get Gold Standard and all its progeny, and the branch that includes the margined hostas (Fortunei Albo/Aureomarginata, et al., and probably Albo-picta). While these are still pretty closely related (bloom behavior, in particular), there are subtle differences that make them, in my eyes, more cousins than sister.

That said, I should go dig up Schmid and see what the real authority has to say!

David

[jgh]

Tigger said it well.

a lot of energy has gone into this question, and it can be summarized by the difference in how they are labeled. A lot of people who get started in hostas only see the names and don't get how labeling works. Many of you already know this, but every now and then it is worth going over...

To give the name of a hosta, you write the genus - Hosta first. When it has already been referred to, then you can use H. following it. As in "Two popular hostas are H. montana and H. 'June.'

Then, if it is a species... coming from a naturally-occuring population... it will be Hosta followed by the name of the species in lower case. Some of these are easy... Hosta montana, Hosta hypoleuca, Hosta longipes... but Schmid described how there developed a naming of hosta "species" that were really populations only found in cultivation - called "speciods" or "species of convenience" or whatever. Lots of arguments over how many species there really are, and which ones are really selections or seedling or sports - in other words...

cultivars - selections, sports, named seedlings... are put inside single quotation marks and capitalized... so we have H. 'Striptease'

In the olden days, they sometimes used to include the species name to give the history of the plant. So, for example, a white-edged montana was given the name Mountain Snow and it was officially listed as H. montana 'Mountain Snow'. Current ly, that naming is out of favor and Schmid lists that hosta as H. 'Mountain Snow'.

Unfortunately, some were named for a characteristic. So, for example, a gold margin in Latin is aureomarginata. A yellow-edged montana was H. montana 'Aureomarginata'. Unlike Mountain Snow, one can't just drop the montana and call it H. 'Aureomarginata' because there are other aureomarginatas in other species. So... it is still H. montana 'Aureomarginata'.

common names - not official - are put in double quotations...

So, since I made my first labels, names have changed. Schmid changed H. fortunei to H. 'Fortunei' and H. undulata became H. 'Undulata'. this resulted in one old variety, one of my favorites, a green Fortunei with a yellow margin, having three labels in my garden. When I first got it from a friend, I was told it was Gold Crown. If one is to use that unoffical name at all, it should be written as "Gold Crown." I then carefully relabeled it to be accurate as H. fortunei 'Aureomarginata'.

Then Schmid published the epic "TheGenus Hosta" in 1991 which took on almost Biblical status. You either accepted and agreed with his conclusions, or you disagreed around the margins and only if you could produce pretty strong arguments based on data George didn't have.

and I had to have a new label. Fortunei was no longer considered a species, and the name was now H. 'Fortunei Aureomarginata'.

In chatting on the forum, we are informal and drop the formal notations most of the time - but once in a while it is worth looking back on the correct notation - contained within a much of the answer to Ed's original question. Fortunei is not a species - there is no parent plant found in the wild that is the origin of all Fortuneis.

samples of correct notation for hostas
species
H. montana
H. clausa

cultivars
H. montana 'Aureomarginata' (species lower case, not in quotes... "given" name capitalized in single quotation marks
H. 'Mountain Snow' (a cultivar of montana heritage, but with a unique cultivar name, given in capitals and inside singe quotes)
H. ' June'

common names, best consigned to the dust bins of history...
"Gold Crown" - actually H. 'Fortunei Aureomarginata'
"Silver Crown" - H. 'Fortunei Albomarginata'

I'm tired... somebody check me to see if I've gotten this right!

[Chris_W]

That all sounds pretty darn good

Since it was agreed that there is no Hosta fortunei in the wild it was agreed that it isn't truly a species, then the fortunei part should really be dropped in most instances. So rather than calling it H. 'Fortunei Hyacinthina' it should just be H. 'Hyacinthina'. But there are a lot of plants considered part of the Fortunei group, basically a large group of hybrids and sports, that are easy to tell are related, mostly from the flowers - bloom time, space color, flower color, flower shape, and similar flower arrangements on the scapes are virtually identical on quite a range of plants such as Whirlwind, Francee, Hyacinthina, Gold Standard, and all of their progeny. Leaves can look very different, but to me, the flowers tell a lot more about the parentage.

[Roxanne]

Good replies! I might add, if someone is trying to ID an unknown plant, I always ask if it sets seed pods. Fortunei-type Hostas rarely set seed, but they also have a high "sporting" percentage, compared to other Hosta families. That is why the Fortunei group is so huge.
I see so many people get excited when their 'Francee' sends up a streaked division, and although it's fun to see mutations in the garden, they are nearly worthless as breeding plants, and while more sports are being found still, the group grows larger.

Can't complain...most are very garden-worthy fast growing plants.

[Pieter]

To give the name of a hosta, you write the genus - Hosta first. When it has already been referred to, then you can use H. following it. As in "Two popular hostas are H. montana and H. 'June.'

Then, if it is a species... coming from a naturally-occuring population... it will be Hosta followed by the name of the species in lower case. Some of these are easy... Hosta montana, Hosta hypoleuca, Hosta longipes...
samples of correct notation for hostas
species
H. montana
H. clausa

cultivars
H. montana 'Aureomarginata' (species lower case, not in quotes... "given" name capitalized in single quotation marks
H. 'Mountain Snow' (a cultivar of montana heritage, but with a unique cultivar name, given in capitals and inside singe quotes)
H. ' June'

You're frightfully close, Jim. The ICBN wants the genus and specie written in italics, so it would be Hosta montana and Hosta 'June'. The genus name may be shortened to the first letter of the genus, which should be capitalized and italicized, when the reference to said genus is the 2nd or 3rd mention of the genus within any given document. As soon as another genus comes into play you go back to square one, so to speak. In other words, I can go on and on about Hosta as a genus in a document and refer to it as H. as long as I don't introduce another genus, such as for example Hemerocallis. If another genus is being brought into the document, and let's stick with the Hemerocallis example, you have to spell out this other genus, but you can continue to use the abbreviation for as long as the genus referenced is the genus last spelled out. And I think you can see how this can lead to potential confusion, particularly with the examples used: which H. are we talking about?

My apologies for adding more confusion....

[Pieter]

Good replies! I might add, if someone is trying to ID an unknown plant, I always ask if it sets seed pods. Fortunei-type Hostas rarely set seed, but they also have a high "sporting" percentage, compared to other Hosta families. That is why the Fortunei group is so huge.

While over the years I have seen only maybe a handful of pods on my clumps of 'Fortunei Hyacinthina' or 'Gold Standard' and 'Striptease', every year my 'Revolution' brims with them, go figure...

[jgh]

thanks, Pieter - I knew you'd correct any omissions... darnit, I thought about the italics and then forgot to include it!

[ViolaAnn]

Fortunei-type Hostas rarely set seed

My Fortunei Aureomarginata is FULL of scapes with seed pods and I have a fair number on Francee as well. Will those seeds not be viable?