Hi,
Personally I don't think either of those pictures of NBC look like nematodes. The damage is too rounded at the bottom instead of slowly tapering off, doesn't cover from vein to vein horizontally, goes across that one vein, and are too even along those two sections. Also it is confined to the white parts which is the first clue that it probably isn't nematodes.
Chris
Nematodes
Moderators: ViolaAnn, redcrx, Chris_W
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Quiet Storm
- Posts: 102
- Joined: May 17, 2006 7:35 am
- Location: Zone 6 -- Eastern Massachusetts
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Quiet Storm
- Posts: 102
- Joined: May 17, 2006 7:35 am
- Location: Zone 6 -- Eastern Massachusetts
sigh...Mine is not touching any other hostas, but is very near my Inniswood, Halcyon, and Krossa Regal.
Inniswood, Lady Isobel Barnett, Fortunei Aureomarginata, and Great Expectations are all showing signs of infestation. All are within several feet of the spot where the infested Golden Tiara was. How do you heat treat a big specimen like LIB? Divide it and treat the divisions? Remove all the leaves and just treat the crown and roots? And when do you treat? I read something online the other day that said spring is a better time to heat treat, just as plants are breaking dormancy, but doesn't it leave surrounding plants at risk to leave an infested plant untreated until the following spring?
Oh my. I am getting a headache.
IF all the leaves are removed (as mentioned in above post), would further treatment be necessary? Could the crown and soil be drenched in place? And with what?
I have tried to do some reading on this, and it seems they keep stressing that one of the preparations is NOT just hydrogen peroxide (hydrogen dioxide); does that mean that it actually IS, and a properly prepared solution of same might be effective?
I have tried to do some reading on this, and it seems they keep stressing that one of the preparations is NOT just hydrogen peroxide (hydrogen dioxide); does that mean that it actually IS, and a properly prepared solution of same might be effective?
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Quiet Storm
- Posts: 102
- Joined: May 17, 2006 7:35 am
- Location: Zone 6 -- Eastern Massachusetts
Found an article that indicates that a hot water drench (70-90 degrees Centigrade) in the spring or fall is effective in reducing nematode populations in hostas, with no adverse affect on the plants. The researchers suggest the drench as a less cumbersome and less time consuming alternative to digging the plants and soaking them in hot water. The article also indicates that a boiling water drench (100 decrees centigrade) is effective, but may reduce the size and number of leaves on hosta plants. Don't know how the drench compares to the hot water bath in terms of nematode reduction, but I am going to try the drench, as I have discovered nematode damage in other parts of my garden, on some fairly large specimens. Here's a link to the article, which was published in 2004. The research was sponsored by the American Hosta Society.
http://s97783203.oneandoneshop.com/journals/36n1/49.pdf
http://s97783203.oneandoneshop.com/journals/36n1/49.pdf
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eastwood2007
- Posts: 3517
- Joined: Jan 25, 2007 12:51 pm
- Location: kansas, usa zone 5b
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Quiet Storm
- Posts: 102
- Joined: May 17, 2006 7:35 am
- Location: Zone 6 -- Eastern Massachusetts
Yes, that's the problem -- most treatments don't completely eliminate them. I won't be doing any trading or sharing because I honestly don't know how widespread my problem is, and I absolutely don't want to spread it to anyone else's garden. I noticed several nematode infested Royal Standards in my neighbor's yard, and told her about it, but she doesn't intend to remove or treat the plants -- she will remove the leaves showing symptoms, but that's the extent of it.
I plan to dig up and heat treat the smaller infested plants. For those that are just too big, I plan to try the hot water drench, coupled with Di-Syston treatments at regular intervals. I haven't been able to find ZeroTol, or I'd try that too. If Diazinon weren't so toxic (and banned), I'd try that as well, because I think I still have some from when my husband used to use it to treat the lawn. But, I really don't like using chemicals in my garden, and I've done well so far without them -- then this infestation pops up, and it has me at wit's end...
I plan to dig up and heat treat the smaller infested plants. For those that are just too big, I plan to try the hot water drench, coupled with Di-Syston treatments at regular intervals. I haven't been able to find ZeroTol, or I'd try that too. If Diazinon weren't so toxic (and banned), I'd try that as well, because I think I still have some from when my husband used to use it to treat the lawn. But, I really don't like using chemicals in my garden, and I've done well so far without them -- then this infestation pops up, and it has me at wit's end...
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eastwood2007
- Posts: 3517
- Joined: Jan 25, 2007 12:51 pm
- Location: kansas, usa zone 5b
Let us know how it works.
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Bill Meyer
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Feb 17, 2003 3:18 pm
- Location: New Jersey
- Contact:
Hi Everybody,
On page 2 of this topic, there are photos from Charla (Eastwood) and Hubble. While both of these bear some real similarity to nematode damage, there is another possibility - edema or oedema. This occurs usually early in the season in cool and very rainy weather. The leaves get waterlogged and cannot get the water out fast enough to avoid damage. When it is happening, you'll see wet, translucent spots or patches on the leaves that look like oil was spilled on them. A week or so later those areas start to show the damage and it can look like the Frances Williams burn with varying percentages of dead cells or it can kill all the cells in the affected area, leaving completely dead tissue.
Because these two showed up very early and nematodes were not found under magnification, that's what I think happened there.
The NBC leaf damage is fungal and also common on White Christmas. Bob Solberg has nicknamed it "Fortunei Fungus".
I wasn't going to get into the what to do about nematodes debate, but the Journal came today with Patrick Coleman's article and I thought I'd offer my two cents.
In the beginning he says that if left alone the nematodes would reduce the size and vigor of the infected plants. This is true, but I think he misses the point somewhat when he goes on to do hot water treatments and actually kills some of those plants. Although he doesn't say how the survivors did, enough others have reported serious setbacks to hot water treated plants that I would think they also suffered reduced size. If I wanted to be funny, I would suggest that the worst hosta health problem in Patrick Coleman's yard is not the nematodes but Patrick and his hot water pot.
People don't quite realize I think that once you see nematodes in a hosta or two in the yard it is basically too late. Eliminating them from the garden is technically possible by using Nemacur or some other strong organophosphate which you are not allowed to use. It would involve blanket treating the whole yard three times a year for a couple years. I say this not to offer hope, but to show how truly difficult it would be to actually go back in time to the days when you didn't have them. Once you have them they're there to stay. The list of people who have them in their garden grows steadily but the list of gardens that had them and got rid of them doesn't have the first name on it yet.
You can keep the numbers down in various ways but you can't get rid of them. Sorry to have to say that but it's true. Thank the EPA for banning the chemicals that worked.
What works best these days among available chemicals are disulfoton and Pylon. Neither will eliminate them them but they will keep symptoms and damage to an absolute minimum. Other chemicals work less well but also can greatly reduce symptoms. It needs to be understood that reducing symptoms is not getting rid of them, just reducing their numbers.
Heating the plants is what Mr. Coleman explores and it will also reduce the numbers. Unfortunately it poses more of a risk to the plant than the nematodes do, and can be a heck of a lot of work on top of it. Even if you successfully kill all nematodes in a plant and don't damage the plant at all, what do you do next? I don't see the point in the garden. You haven't killed the nematodes in all the other plants and in the soil, so as soon as you put the hosta back it gets nematodes again. To me it seems like you have ants on your hosta so you dig it up and shake the ants into the trash can. Then you plant the hosta again and more ants crawl back onto it.
These nematodes are very very difficult to eradicate, nearly impossible, so if you can't get rid of them why torture or throw away your plants? There are ways to keep the numbers down and still enjoy a garden virtually free of nematode symptoms, but it's barking up the wrong tree to think in terms of getting rid of the nematodes themselves. And another issue is whether you know you actually killed all the nematodes. Small numbers will not cause visible damage, and it takes a couple months of favorable temperatures for the population to build up high enough to show damage. In his article Mr. Coleman said most did not show symptoms the next year. The only way to tell if they did not have any nematodes would be to cut the whole plants up into little pieces and put them in water.
Heat treating might be good for a plant you intend to give away or sell, but if you are just going to put it back into the nematode-infested garden there doesn't seem to be much point.
............Bill Meyer
On page 2 of this topic, there are photos from Charla (Eastwood) and Hubble. While both of these bear some real similarity to nematode damage, there is another possibility - edema or oedema. This occurs usually early in the season in cool and very rainy weather. The leaves get waterlogged and cannot get the water out fast enough to avoid damage. When it is happening, you'll see wet, translucent spots or patches on the leaves that look like oil was spilled on them. A week or so later those areas start to show the damage and it can look like the Frances Williams burn with varying percentages of dead cells or it can kill all the cells in the affected area, leaving completely dead tissue.
Because these two showed up very early and nematodes were not found under magnification, that's what I think happened there.
The NBC leaf damage is fungal and also common on White Christmas. Bob Solberg has nicknamed it "Fortunei Fungus".
I wasn't going to get into the what to do about nematodes debate, but the Journal came today with Patrick Coleman's article and I thought I'd offer my two cents.
In the beginning he says that if left alone the nematodes would reduce the size and vigor of the infected plants. This is true, but I think he misses the point somewhat when he goes on to do hot water treatments and actually kills some of those plants. Although he doesn't say how the survivors did, enough others have reported serious setbacks to hot water treated plants that I would think they also suffered reduced size. If I wanted to be funny, I would suggest that the worst hosta health problem in Patrick Coleman's yard is not the nematodes but Patrick and his hot water pot.
People don't quite realize I think that once you see nematodes in a hosta or two in the yard it is basically too late. Eliminating them from the garden is technically possible by using Nemacur or some other strong organophosphate which you are not allowed to use. It would involve blanket treating the whole yard three times a year for a couple years. I say this not to offer hope, but to show how truly difficult it would be to actually go back in time to the days when you didn't have them. Once you have them they're there to stay. The list of people who have them in their garden grows steadily but the list of gardens that had them and got rid of them doesn't have the first name on it yet.
You can keep the numbers down in various ways but you can't get rid of them. Sorry to have to say that but it's true. Thank the EPA for banning the chemicals that worked.
What works best these days among available chemicals are disulfoton and Pylon. Neither will eliminate them them but they will keep symptoms and damage to an absolute minimum. Other chemicals work less well but also can greatly reduce symptoms. It needs to be understood that reducing symptoms is not getting rid of them, just reducing their numbers.
Heating the plants is what Mr. Coleman explores and it will also reduce the numbers. Unfortunately it poses more of a risk to the plant than the nematodes do, and can be a heck of a lot of work on top of it. Even if you successfully kill all nematodes in a plant and don't damage the plant at all, what do you do next? I don't see the point in the garden. You haven't killed the nematodes in all the other plants and in the soil, so as soon as you put the hosta back it gets nematodes again. To me it seems like you have ants on your hosta so you dig it up and shake the ants into the trash can. Then you plant the hosta again and more ants crawl back onto it.
These nematodes are very very difficult to eradicate, nearly impossible, so if you can't get rid of them why torture or throw away your plants? There are ways to keep the numbers down and still enjoy a garden virtually free of nematode symptoms, but it's barking up the wrong tree to think in terms of getting rid of the nematodes themselves. And another issue is whether you know you actually killed all the nematodes. Small numbers will not cause visible damage, and it takes a couple months of favorable temperatures for the population to build up high enough to show damage. In his article Mr. Coleman said most did not show symptoms the next year. The only way to tell if they did not have any nematodes would be to cut the whole plants up into little pieces and put them in water.
Heat treating might be good for a plant you intend to give away or sell, but if you are just going to put it back into the nematode-infested garden there doesn't seem to be much point.
............Bill Meyer
If you thought the auction was fun, come to the meeting!
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eastwood2007
- Posts: 3517
- Joined: Jan 25, 2007 12:51 pm
- Location: kansas, usa zone 5b
Bill may have answered one of the questions I had in how long it takes a plant to show symptoms once they are infected. This is what I am dealing with:
I had 3 hostas I got from a nursery that I had quarantined in my greenhouse. 2 I shipped across country, and 1 I kept. Had the one I kept about 2 weeks before noticing nems symptoms. Took it for testing...it tested positive along with others from the batches of the two I shipped.
Before shipping I rinsed soil off the roots in an area away from everything, but the bulk of the soil I dumped into a tray and set on the ground. Probably some soil spilled into the yard.
I had a several hostas in pots about 15 feet from where I was dumping out the soil, but where i rinsed them was 50 ft. + away.
After seeing nem symptoms for the first time I started looking at everything. One of the hostas in the grouping of pots (sitting in the grass) close to where I was dumping soil to ship was showing symptoms...only 2 days after dumping soil, though. It was a potted hosta I had gotten June 1 ish. Acquiring and shipping the other hostas with nems all happened around June 18. Moved all other hostas away from the one showing symptoms. Had hosta tested...think a bad test as it came up negative. Several weeks later the hosta showed more symptoms and had it tested a different way...positive for nems. This hosta was in its original pot from the grower.
Continuing to watch gardens, 6 hostas in 2 different beds showed symptoms. All tested positive. One bed the hostas had been there 3-4 years and were all in the same general area, coincidentally surrounding a hosta purchased at the nem source last year.
2nd bed all hostas surrounding another hosta from nem source last year. One hosta that showed bad infestation i couldn't remember where I got it.
This morning, test came up positive on large, beautiful hosta I got this spring from what I thought was a reputable source, (not hallson's
), but it was one that was at one time over by the others in pots by the one that tested positive. The others in pots were the ones I didn't get until June 1 of this year.
So questions are: Could potted hostas I had set previous years in the grassy spot have left nems in the soil that climbed into the pots? Could nem damage show up in the potted hosta at 10 days exposure if I happened to splash some soil from the ones I shipped into the pot? Or did these potted hostas come with the nems in them? While one hosta was in its original pot, the other one had been shipped bareroot and I potted it in some commercial potting mix...could the nems have been in the mix?
The largest quarantine area I have is on gravel...I have a number of pots there quarantining for HVX (they don't have it, I just wanted to make sure before I intro'd them into my gardens). Wouldn't the gravel provide some distance and barrier difficulties for any nems that might happen to be in the soil from previous years to travel back up to the pots that are sitting there now?
I appreciate any help that anyone may offer. There may not be enough known about nems to answer these. I am just hoping to get enough information, so that if I can't get these beds clean as Bill says, I can avoid transferring the nems to other beds. Since 2005 when I heard about HVX, I always clean tools and hands in between handling plants. I do have pets that go in and out of the beds that could possibly spread things.
Again, thanks for any help.
I had 3 hostas I got from a nursery that I had quarantined in my greenhouse. 2 I shipped across country, and 1 I kept. Had the one I kept about 2 weeks before noticing nems symptoms. Took it for testing...it tested positive along with others from the batches of the two I shipped.
Before shipping I rinsed soil off the roots in an area away from everything, but the bulk of the soil I dumped into a tray and set on the ground. Probably some soil spilled into the yard.
I had a several hostas in pots about 15 feet from where I was dumping out the soil, but where i rinsed them was 50 ft. + away.
After seeing nem symptoms for the first time I started looking at everything. One of the hostas in the grouping of pots (sitting in the grass) close to where I was dumping soil to ship was showing symptoms...only 2 days after dumping soil, though. It was a potted hosta I had gotten June 1 ish. Acquiring and shipping the other hostas with nems all happened around June 18. Moved all other hostas away from the one showing symptoms. Had hosta tested...think a bad test as it came up negative. Several weeks later the hosta showed more symptoms and had it tested a different way...positive for nems. This hosta was in its original pot from the grower.
Continuing to watch gardens, 6 hostas in 2 different beds showed symptoms. All tested positive. One bed the hostas had been there 3-4 years and were all in the same general area, coincidentally surrounding a hosta purchased at the nem source last year.
2nd bed all hostas surrounding another hosta from nem source last year. One hosta that showed bad infestation i couldn't remember where I got it.
This morning, test came up positive on large, beautiful hosta I got this spring from what I thought was a reputable source, (not hallson's
), but it was one that was at one time over by the others in pots by the one that tested positive. The others in pots were the ones I didn't get until June 1 of this year.So questions are: Could potted hostas I had set previous years in the grassy spot have left nems in the soil that climbed into the pots? Could nem damage show up in the potted hosta at 10 days exposure if I happened to splash some soil from the ones I shipped into the pot? Or did these potted hostas come with the nems in them? While one hosta was in its original pot, the other one had been shipped bareroot and I potted it in some commercial potting mix...could the nems have been in the mix?
The largest quarantine area I have is on gravel...I have a number of pots there quarantining for HVX (they don't have it, I just wanted to make sure before I intro'd them into my gardens). Wouldn't the gravel provide some distance and barrier difficulties for any nems that might happen to be in the soil from previous years to travel back up to the pots that are sitting there now?
I appreciate any help that anyone may offer. There may not be enough known about nems to answer these. I am just hoping to get enough information, so that if I can't get these beds clean as Bill says, I can avoid transferring the nems to other beds. Since 2005 when I heard about HVX, I always clean tools and hands in between handling plants. I do have pets that go in and out of the beds that could possibly spread things.
Again, thanks for any help.
Charla
Latitude 38.57N; Longitude -94.89W (Elev. 886 ft.)
Latitude 38.57N; Longitude -94.89W (Elev. 886 ft.)
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pauhaus
- Posts: 1200
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- USDA Zone: 5b
- Location: Brighton, MI- 42° 28' 8.3964"
Hi Charla, just wanted to mention that as you probably know, other plants harbor nematodes too. Found that out recently when my nice clump of Golden Tiara showed symptoms of nems for the first time in a nem free (or so I thought) zone. Turns out the clump of hepatica and brunnera that I have planted nearby has them. I think ferns and solomon's seal also can harbor them too. 
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VThosta/daylilylover
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