"Pro NUN see ay shun" of Hostas

[HostaDesigner]

A couple have perplexed me. I have heard them both in several different pronunciations. How do you pronounce:

H. 'Sagae' (I say: SOG-ay)

and

H. plantaginea (I say plan-TAJ-nee-uh) "TAJ" as in "had"

Just curious...

[Ginger]

I am an Okie, so I pronounce in Okie

Sagae to me is "Saw guy" (like the fish ) I know this is totally wrong, Chris identified how to pronounce it correctly in a previous thread, but my Okie tongue won't say it

And Plantaginea is "Plan tan ia" go figure

Ginger

[ViolaAnn]

I saw a page with pronunciations of the Japanese names and it indicated that Sagae should be Sa Gah Ee.

Plantaginea - Latin right? I never took it but I gather that Undulata should be Un doo lay ta rather than Un doo lah ta as I like to say it.

[jgh]

As I understand Japanese, there are two principles that we need to know to even come close to correct pronunciation.

First, Japanese words do not have accents on syllables... all syllables have the same emphasis.

Second, every vowel is pronounced... so toe in English is Toh, with oe pronounced oh, the e being silent but indicating a long o sound for the o. In Japanese, it would be pronounced toh-eh.

On the other hand, in English we tend to se pa rate our syllables more distinctly than do the Japanese. A native speaker would laugh if they heard you say Sah-gah-eh. The final ah-eh is run together so that, even though both vowels are pronounced, there's a very small break between then.

As a hopelessly monolingual American, I've found that I can come pretty close on Sagae by saying Sah-gah-eh fast... thus gaheh sounds almost like one syllable, and yet there is still the pronounciation of the eh.

I don't know how Suh-GUY got started, but Japanese speakers tell me it is absolutely incorrect.

as to the Latin... there are certainly better Latin scholars here than I... I know there are lots of different Latin pronounciations - for example, Church Latin (which I learned as an altar boy in pre=Vatican II catholic church) is different from scientific Latin... and over the years, scientific Latin has reflected the pronounciation of the country and wasn't consistent, even throughout Europe - My brother, who is a pharmacist, learned a particular pronounciation system and as we are both gardeners, he often corrects my pronounciation, yet I'm matching the pronounciation of learned horticulturalists.

anyway, pronounciation is variable with the exception that the accented syllable in Latin will always be the second or third last syllable. If the second to the last syllable has a long vowel, it is accented. If not, the accent moves to third syllable from the end.

So Plan - ta -gi - ne -a would have the accent on either ne or gi, depending on whether ne is long (nay) or short (ne). To me it is plan-tah-gih-NAY-uh...

and let's not even start on Huechera or Huecherella!!!

[Tigger]

Jim,

Good job on Sagae. Sah-gah-eh (but, as you note, the last two syllables become a sort of diphthong, but certainly closer to "guy" than to "gay")

For the Latin, things become a mess. The problem is that the Latin spoken by botanists comes out of Anglican church Latin and not Roman church Latin (which is different still from German/Austrian church Latin, and also different from classical Latin). Classical/Roman Latin has only five vowel sounds: a=ah, e=eh (also ae and oe=eh), i=ee, o=oh/aw, u=oo. That's not nearly enough for the English, so they made the long/short vowel distinctions that were used in their native tongue. And they moved syllable stresses where they wanted to, rather than in their original (classical) positions (based on the kind of ending the word has, rather than strictly counting syllables). As Jim notes, pronunciations get especially tricky when the name is derived from a person's name, where I think the intent is to try to keep some semblance of the original pronunciation. So hosta should be more like HAW-stuh or HOE-stuh than HAH-stuh? You say potayto, I say potahto.

Long story short for the purpose of this thread:
plantaginea = plan - tuh - JIN - ee - uh

Not that even the best botanists don't screw things up. Who is going to say VY-o-luh for viola? (Speaking of Viola[Ann], you wouldn't be alone on uhn - dyoo - LAH - tuh, where uhn-dyoo-LAY-tuh is strictly correct.) And I still get twisted on the end of the family names: aceraceae = ay - ser - AY -see - ee.

David

[rosemarie]

Well, I am totally confused now.

[jgh]

is it ROSE-muh-ree or ROSE MUH-ree???

There are a few hosta on the list at
http://www.finegardening.com/pguide/pro ... latin.aspx
where you can listen to pronounciations. Just reading a few while listening makes me feel like I'm "close enough for government work."

I also like the style of this writer, answering the pronounciation question
http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq5020.html -

basic conclusion... if the other person understands what you are saying, you are communicating - and isn't that the point?!

[digs57]

I speak Canajun, eh? In this vein, Sagae is "Sag, eh" in my garden. And Plantaginea is Plant a gin, EH, ah! A hosta by any other name, eh?

[jgh]

[flowerchild59]

I am so bad at pronuncinating anything due to my midwest, so ill. twang, that I even say "warsh" instead of wash.
But I say "sa gay ee" and "plant ti gi nea".

[R. Rock]

Damn Renecks!
Plant a jean ya
Suh guy

[loisf]

JGH (Jim), the other day you told me how to say kikutii. I believe you said "kee-koo-tee-eye." Close? Lois

[ViolaAnn]

VY-o-luh vs Vee-o-luh just depends on whether you are talking the flower or the instrument. Re. the instrument, just call it bratsche or Brat-shuh

[jgh]

close, Lois... I think
kih-KOOT-ee-eye
is about right...

and we both have great affection for
Kifukurin Ko Mame
which I pronounce as
kih-foo-KOO-rin koe MAH-may

feel free to correct me, anybody. We used to have a native Japanese speaker here, but I haven't seen her around for a while - she was a great resource...

[Pieter]

Having taken conversational Japanese a few too many years ago, I do recall that the Japanese language is in essence monotone as opposed to say Mandarin -which has 8 tones- and Cantonese -which has 7 tones- and in those languages the tones are used to change the meaning of the word, whereas in English and the other Germanic languages we use tones for emphasis. There is no emphasis on any part of the word in Japanese.

So, having said all that, the proper pronunciation, near as I can figure, would be: kih-foo-koo-rin koe mah-may... where's Mikky when you need her...

[FreakyCola]

Jim,
Somehow I got to calling my Kifukurin Ko Mame "Kiffy YO MAMA!" and Opipara Koriyama "Little Oppie Cunningham".
Why? Why not?
FreakyCola, AKA Stoned Soda

[Minnow]

ABIQUA! ah-Bee or Aah-bah?

[jgh]

AH-bih-quah

for Abiqua Creek, a scenic tributary of the Pudding River in Oregon. For years, Dr. Chuck Purtyman ran Walden West nursery and registered some fine hostas. The creek ran through his property. I didn't know anything about the history when I dropped in a few years and learned that Dr. Chuck was a recluse, living under rustic conditions out in the country. The hosta Abiqua Recluse was appropriately named for him. He has since passed on to the Great Hosta Glade In The Sky.

Abiqua Recluse gave rise to a sport that will probably be Dr. Chuck's greatest legacy in the hosta world. It Dr. was originally named Abiqua Paradigm, but maybe somebody finally convinced Dr. Chuck that the Abiqua name was interferring with acceptance of the hostas. Whatever the reason, Abiqua was dropped and Paradigm developed a big following, including Bob Axmear at the Hosta Library who lobbied until it was named Hosta of the Year a few years back.