Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Frost?

Talk about hostas, hostas, and more hostas! Companion plant topics should be posted in the Shade Garden forum.

Moderators: ViolaAnn, redcrx, Chris_W

New Topic Post Reply
User avatar
Chris_W
Administrator
Posts: 8465
Joined: Oct 05, 2001 8:00 pm
USDA Zone: 9
Location: Co. Roscommon, Ireland
Contact:

Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Frost?

Post by Chris_W »

From the new journal there are (at least) two mentions that El Nino and First Frost are the same plant, but personally, I really have to disagree. Maybe people are growing these together in a lot of sunlight? Or is there that much of a regional difference between the two?

For me, El Nino comes up with a pure white edge and keeps it all year long. It is one of my favorites, and even today is still looking pretty darn good! First Frost, for me, comes up with a bright yellow edge that changes to a creamy yellow to creamy white, unless it is in a cool, shady spot, then it stays fairly yellow.

Here are two pictures from today, in October. There is no way that these are the same, identical plant, in my opinion. Yes, they are similar, but not identical, even this time of year. In the spring there is an even bigger difference, with First Frost having a bright yellow edge. What are they like in your gardens?
Attachments
El Nino in October
El Nino in October
First Frost in October
First Frost in October
Image
User avatar
viktoria
Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct 17, 2001 8:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Fro

Post by viktoria »

I couldn't agree with you more, Chris! If one has a white edge and the other a yellow edge fading to cream, how are they the same?

Viktoria
Many a great tune has been played on an older fiddle.
User avatar
renaldo75
Posts: 10306
Joined: Jul 15, 2002 8:00 pm
Location: SW Iowa Z4b

Re: Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Fro

Post by renaldo75 »

I'll 2nd your 2nd Viktoria. Similar yes. Exactly alike - not in my garden.
And they're planted within 12 feet of each other so they are in virtually
the same growing conditions.

I was able to pick up a 'Sleeping Beauty' in my travels this summer.
Which I believe is Walter's Gardens entry into this particular batch of
narrow margined 'Halcyon' sports. Right now it looks a lot like El Nino.
We'll see how it compares in spring. if I remember right from my quiz
this summer, there is at least one more of these 'lookalikes' from another
tc lab, but I don't recall the name at the moment.
GO HAWKEYES!!!

Renaldo's Hosta List
Latitude: 40° 59' 17.6676"; Longitude: -94° 44' 28.014"
mooie
Posts: 858
Joined: Aug 09, 2002 8:00 pm
Location: Illinois 5

Re: Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Fro

Post by mooie »

I have 2 El Nino's and 1 First Frost. The first frost and one el nino grow almost side by side and I at times think they look very similar. If it wasn't for the markers in the ground...... :o Now the second el nino looks very different. It's still very blue, the margins are wider and I'd like to have a lot more of just that plant. :)

Ren, there is a huge difference in those above and sleeping beauty... First flush of leaves in the spring are such a soft velvety blue w/a cream edge. It never really attains the deep blue of the el nino. Second flush is equally pretty! Here's a pic. I'll try to get a pic of my 'good' el nino whenever it decides to get light out. :lol:

Teresa
Sleeping Beauty
Sleeping Beauty
~Imagine~
Linda P
Posts: 6212
Joined: Oct 15, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: N W Illinois, zone 5

Re: Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Fro

Post by Linda P »

I don't know why they would be considered the same plant, either. My First Frost is in quite a bit of sun, and
does get whiter edges, except where the sun doesn't hit it at all, so some stay cream, some are white.
Sleeping Beauty does have that frosty look that separates it.
Autumn Frost is a new one from Walters Gardens that is right now throwing up a new flush of leaves,
and it is a really bright yellow. Can't wait to watch that one through the year next year to see how it
compares. I'm hoping it will keep a yellow tone through the year.

Linda P
And time remembered is grief forgotten,
And frosts are slain and flowers begotten.....
Algernon Charles Swinburne

Latitude: 41° 51' 12.1572"


My Hosta List
User avatar
Chris_W
Administrator
Posts: 8465
Joined: Oct 05, 2001 8:00 pm
USDA Zone: 9
Location: Co. Roscommon, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Fro

Post by Chris_W »

Hi Linda,

Autumn Frost is a wide margined sport of First Frost, so the coloring will the just like First Frost, just a wider margin. Sort of like Blue Ivory is a wide margined El Nino.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts. :)

Chris
Image
User avatar
renaldo75
Posts: 10306
Joined: Jul 15, 2002 8:00 pm
Location: SW Iowa Z4b

Re: Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Fro

Post by renaldo75 »

Thanks for that picture, Teresa! I'm glad I picked up Sleeping Beauty now. :P
Can't wait to see that soft blue in spring!!

Linda - I think Autumn Frost is the wider margined sport of First Frost.
So I would think they'd be pretty similar. Don't let it have much sun and
it should keep that yellow margin.
GO HAWKEYES!!!

Renaldo's Hosta List
Latitude: 40° 59' 17.6676"; Longitude: -94° 44' 28.014"
User avatar
Noreaster
Posts: 389
Joined: Sep 20, 2007 7:15 pm
Location: Maine

Re: Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Fro

Post by Noreaster »

In my garden, First Frost never loses that yellow tinge to the edges...looks pretty much like Chris' photo. So it never reaches "identical status" with El Nino here. I also have Sleeping Beauty, which right now looks a lot like El Nino. Of the three, Sleeping Beauty is my favorite. I think it's "softer" looking than El Nino, which is so frosty cool for much of the season. I find the coloration of El nino almost too cool, and don't really like the way it looks next to other plants. Still working on finding things that look good with it. I think El Nino should have been named something with the word "ice".

I like the progression of color with Sleeping Beauty, and SB does not seem to need much sun for the margins to turn to white/cream. Mine is almost in full shade. I have First Frost in more sun than SB, and as I said, it never loses the yellow cast. I find the same true of the centers of High Society and Remember Me. Even without sun, HS lightens up nicely, where RM stays pretty yellow for me, even in decent light.

I've posted it before, but here is a shot of El Nino, Sleeping Beauty, and First Frost in the Spring.
Image
JoshS
Posts: 1134
Joined: Oct 11, 2001 8:00 pm
USDA Zone: 4
Location: Independence, IA
Contact:

Re: Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Fro

Post by JoshS »

Great comparison shot, Noreaster! It shows the differences perfectly.

Personally, First Frost is my favorite...I love the spring colors.
Image
User avatar
redcrx
Posts: 4872
Joined: Jun 23, 2008 4:39 pm
USDA Zone: 7
Location: Camden, New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Fro

Post by redcrx »

There was a similar discussion a while ago pointing out the same thing. I tried to get some shots this morning but the sun was too bright.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=52774&hilit=+el+nino

Hi Josh, FF is one of my favorites. It certainly hangs around the longest.
Ed McHugh, Sicklerville NJ
ImageMockingbird feeding juvenile yellow raisons - never leave home without them.
isadora
Posts: 160
Joined: Nov 18, 2009 8:39 pm
USDA Zone: 6B-7

Re: Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Fro

Post by isadora »

I had to go look. In my garden, First Frost has a wider edge, creamy fading into white this time of year. El Nino is way more blue than green, with a narrower, whiter edge. And FF is considerably bigger even tho they are both about 5 yrs old. Both in shade with some morning sun. I don't see them as the same plant at all.
User avatar
thy
Posts: 9047
Joined: Sep 23, 2002 8:00 pm
USDA Zone: 7
Location: Denmark - 7B/8A Lat. 55,23

Re: Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Fro

Post by thy »

Then all the blue tardianas are the same....

Here El Niño have snow white edges all season, First Frost fade from yellow to rich cream
El Niño is going from a deep powder blue to a sort of very deep blue, First Frost from a softer blue to a blue green

Even if you cut of the edges and showed me a the leaf I would reconise a El Niño for its center color- the only one in my garden close to that deep blue in late season, is Deep Blue Sea.. somehow it do not look like the blue in the center is wax only :hmm:

I think - like others, there are different plants out there... just look at the HL for First Frost confusion :hmm: and add that El Niño got a HVX problem very early in its lifetime... Easy to belive some baches came out not exactly corect
Against stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain.
E-mail for pics hostapics@gmail.com
User avatar
jgh
Posts: 5135
Joined: Oct 14, 2001 8:00 pm
Location: Plymouth, Minnesota zone 4

Re: Why the "identical" comparisons of El Nino and First Fro

Post by jgh »

I grow them side by side... they are not the same plant... sorry, I'm on the road and don't have access to my photo files... but I've posted the pics before. clearly FF emerges yellow margined and it fades to white while El Nino emerges crisp white margin from the get-go. If I had to pic, I prefer the consistency of El Nino. I have lots of hostas that will change from yellow-cream-white margins... so I appreciate the clear white of El Nino early in the season. Same reason I'm such a fan of the juvenile form of Ginko Craig... that Icey white margin early in the season while so many hostas are yellow or cream waiting to turn to white...

I'll have to go and check the Journal references... as a national publication, you'd hope this kind of errors wouldn't slip in. On the other hand, the writers are all unpaid and almost anybody can get published if they try. In fact, barring unseen intervention, even this Idiot will have an article in the Journal soon...
New Topic Post Reply