So many new hostas on the market...

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Chris_W
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So many new hostas on the market...

Post by Chris_W »

Hi,

It sure is amazing how many new hostas keep popping up. There are many more hybridizers than ever before, it seems, or at least seed starters ;), and many are coming to market rather quickly. For me, after doing this for so long, I get a little hesitant/gun shy about starting too many different, untested plants. I've even had trouble with certain hybridizers plants in the garden though the market keeps getting flooded with more of them. So from a business standpoint I do have a hard time sinking money into plants that may or may not be easy to grow, have enough market appeal, or really stand the test of time. Basically, I've been burned too many times before.

So as many of you probably have noticed, I tend to trial a few plants here and there for a couple years before jumping in, then grow things on for 2 more years once I've decided they are worthy, so I don't roll out the really new-new plants that fast. I also won't bring in anything from the Dutch as I still have no confidence that they've solved their virus (HVX, tobacco rattle, cucumber mosaic, arabis mosaic, etc., etc.) problems. Nematodes are of course another concern with Dutch plants. I wish it wasn't the case, but unfortunately it is.

Well, I'll keep watching these new plants, and if they have staying power on the market for a year or two I'll consider adding those plants to our selection.

But I was wondering what your take is on this? Are you an early adopter, trying everything new that appeals to you, or even a rapid collector that want's ALL the new plants, or are you a bit conservative, or downright cautious like me? :lol: Just wondering :)

Chris
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Linda P
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by Linda P »

Chris_W wrote:Hi,
.

But I was wondering what your take is on this? Are you an early adopter, trying everything new that appeals to you, or even a rapid collector that want's ALL the new plants, or are you a bit conservative, or downright cautious like me? :lol: Just wondering :)

Chris

Pretty much YES..to all of the above, although that would be a little schizophrenic. :lol: I seem to want to get anything that looks new and different, and if I see a new plant that appeals to me I like to get my hands on it..however, I then have to remind myself that many of these are put on the market so quickly that it's an iffy proposition whether they will grow, what size they might reach, etc. I can only imagine what a hard line that is to walk for the retailers, balancing the collector's desire for new plants with your own need to provide good growing plants to your customers. I think you do a great job of keeping the balance.
I have to say, also, that seeing some of the plants that you've grown for a while, and seeing them approaching mature size, invariably leads me to find some really good plants that I might have missed in all the hoopla that accompanies the new crop each year.

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largosmom
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by largosmom »

Generally, I try to be an early adopter, but I've gotten a lot more selective as my collection is growing. I will say this Chris...your approach works, and I appreciate it. Even though I'm in a much further south location, if I try to compare a hosta purchased from you to ones I have purchased from other vendors, yours have larger and better established root systems and are generally hardier and better prepared for my garden. I credit that grow time in your good deep soil for that. So my advice..don't change your approach.

It's not a bad idea to survey what people are looking at by asking what people are interested in. I'll wait a year to buy something from you, personally, before I'll buy it from someone else.

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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by impatience »

I used to want (and often get) the latest hosta out, but after the whole HVX thing got rolling I've stopped buying any hosta except here and that is rare as well for various reasons. For one thing this area of the world is just a hostile place to grow hosta and the ones that have done well have been the tried and true. Spending money on plants that may or may not make it has gotten old and I'm too tired to struggle making a little fussy thing grow where it isn't happy.

I know that the big bucks are on the newest thing (remember when H. Patriot was the newest thing? They just died a quick death here) but there are many beautiful plants that have wonderful traits (such as really growing) that providing plants that are truly garden worthy is righteous. I'm glad that Chris takes pride in his product and it shows. I hope that ethic has monetary returns as well.
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by paul_in_mn »

Yes and No to your questions - there are still so many nice older hosta that I wouldn't have known much about had it not been for pictures and comments posted on hosta forums. But, I still purchase a few that are new intros and would probably purchase more of these - but when price gets above $20 the Swedish half of me gets a bit tight. Especially since I know that in 2-3 years the price and demand will level out. By that time hopefully we'll know better if that same wonderful picture in every hosta catalog is truly what it will look like at maturity (i.e. white line in Deja Blu). Also it seems some are registering every tc sport that occurs - to me this comes off a bit like a puppy factory for hosta (hope that came out right). Picked up a couple of new intros at the AHS convention in MN that I probably would have waited on normally. But I figured on that before I signed up.
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by kaylyred »

There are certain plants that I find I want in on right away. This year, 'Captain's Adventure' caught my eye, for instance. But mostly I'm patient about the newer hostas and willing to wait until I've heard some people say that they've had success growing them. I've had my eye on certain other hostas only to read later that the hosta I thought looked brilliant is really a slow grower or has other issues.

The thing I like most about Hallson's (or any other hosta retailer who does the same) is the way almost every plant has a bit of information about its garden character and what I can expect from it. Will it be a bit slower but worth the wait? Does it grow best with more light? Less light? Is it glorious in the spring only to become plainer later in the year? What are its best characteristics? A grower's assessment is invaluable to me. I also like sites that allow member ratings and comments. (I bet something like that would do well on a site like Hallson's that already has an active community.)

Anyhow, just my thoughts. I admit I'm always very tempted by the newest plants...but in most cases I try to remain practical.
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by Chris_W »

Thanks for the discussion :)

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm knocking those who do take the risks on all those new plants. Personally I'd like to see some of the new intros slow down just a little, especially with some of the places that seem to introduce new plants just for the sake of having something "new", but I still love looking at all the new plants out there and appreciate seeing what is coming up next. At Hosta College it was tough not picking up a few things, and it was great seeing them all, but I did restrain myself.

I've mentioned this before, but it is worth it again. There are some plants that have a lot of appeal when they are young which often go to market quickly, only to find that as they get older they lose some of the young characteristics that everyone loves. These actually tend to be easy to sell young but don't have a long shelf life on the wholesale market once they start to grow up and the selling stops or slows. Then there are the plants that take a long time to really get that mature or different look to them, and then can be great plants. These are a lot tougher to sell as the young plants just don't jump out at you. Especially without a really great picture or a big display plant they are almost impossible to sell. These are the slow sellers, and because of that they also don't have a very long shelf life on the wholesale market. Makes it tough for any grower to figure out what to put out next!

All that said, I just can't wait to start digging hostas again! The ground is pretty much completely thawed out here, earlier than usual, and hopefully it will stay that way for a while. So far we are on track to begin shipping hostas as scheduled a week from Monday, though it will easily be another month for them to unfurl, which is fine, they can stay asleep until after all chance of frost, as far as I'm concerned!

Thanks again for the plant discussion.

Chris
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by thy »

Like the others it is a no and a yes

Just let me start at
(HVX, tobacco rattle, cucumber mosaic, arabis mosaic, etc., etc
.. I have only seen the HVX and have looked at so many hostas here from different sourses ( all Dutch) and you are mentioning nematodes too... :hmm: I have never heard about it here, but ask around.

:: Living in Dutch imported land- all European countris do, ... exept the Polish are coming up too.. the extremlu cheap plants
Here is what i do
I only bye from Marco Fransen and Jan van den Top, they are the ones doing an exelent job here and like you, they had a hard time with the HVX, next thing- not for virus, but for garden worthy is, i bye by originatorname, meaning there are names I avoid, they/he have put out too many new and way to new hostas on the market, :evil: I have killed them by just looking the other way in a split second. They have to prove themself before I bye a new hosta from them.
Then, lets take an other example.... a new intro from our see weed polinator... I would get it as fast as I could, knowing he had tested it for years before it went to TC- then I would have to belive in my nurseryman.-- only selling true to type
If lets say the sea weed polinator put out a new hosta, I would never wait for your testing and then 2 year growing, even it would be a good plant- Sorry, but the fact.
On the other hand, most of us make long lists wich we have to cut down... If i still thought of a hosta after 2 years or more... I would bye it by you if i could, you sell exelent hostas with a root system I have never seen anywhere else
Last edited by thy on Mar 24, 2011 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by scootersbear »

I've been openly complaining about this for a long time without saying his name but go to the hosta registrations for the last 5 or more years and you'll see 1 major name that is the biggest problem and unfortunitely it's also the same person everybody want's his hosta book. Granted he takes good pics and gives adaquit descriptions (not great) and is responsible in part for the development of the hosta trade but he's also going to be the death of it as well if he continues to flood the market with junk hostas. It's become who can put the most out a year that wins not who puts out the best hosta. Because of his lack of responsibility at this point to put out good hostas rather than the quality of hostas he's known for in the past I will not put another of his hostas in my garden, it will just die or dissappoint anyways. It's a shame that the hosta forefathers and mothers feel they have to keep their names in the registration book or make $ by putting something out that isn't worthy. Leafy once told me just because it's a registered hosta it doesn't make it a good hosta (it was good advice). Answer over the last 5 years theres probably been less than 20 hostas that deserve to have been registered that have been put out into the major market. I no longer buy hostas right when they come out. Most I already have one that looks just like it or it's junk. I'll let others pay too much and write their reviews about it first.

Abraham Lincoln may have been a great president and may be a great name but the hosta should have been culled it's a horrible looking and performing hosta I wasted money on and will go in losers lane.
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by kaylyred »

Chris_W wrote:I hope it doesn't sound like I'm knocking those who do take the risks on all those new plants.
Didn't sound that way at all to me. It sounded more like you wanted to get feedback on your customers' buying habits. And you also stated your own philosophy as to why you don't always have the brand new hosta that everyone's oooing and aaahing over. It seems like a very sound philosophy to me. And, with few exceptions, I'd rather be growing a winner of a hosta that I know people have had success with than using my garden (and my money) to "beta test" hostas without a track record.
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by Tigger »

Chris,

I say stick with your sensible business model. I would say that you have a reputation for selling Quality: both in the product you deliver and the product you choose to stock. Other sellers can have a different model, catering to the boutique buyer. As in any market, caveat emptor. If you want to have a lot of new hostas (not that there's anything wrong with that), then you better recognize that from time to time you're going to buy a dog. (I'm always particularly leery of any "set" of hostas built around names, as I would bet that many of these are 2nd-rate plants just used to flesh out a series.)

One of those famous hosta guys is famous for saying there are only about 100 different "looks" a hosta can have in the garden (a corollary to the 20-foot rule, as it were). That may be a bit chintzy, especially if you throw in minis as a separate class, but that's probably in the right order of magnitude. Anyone who's been to MillFleurs (Barbara Tiffany's garden) knows what a challenge it is to make 1500 different hostas look interesting, even in a spectacular setting (and yes, she succeeds).

So I'm probably like a lot of you (and a lot of Hallson's customers): I choose most of my purchases carefully, looking to well-established suppliers and seeking characteristics that will ensure the plant will be as eye-catching in my garden as it is in the best picture in a catalog. But I reserve the right to make impulse buys, so that maybe something new (ooohh, shiny) catches my eye even when I haven't a clue what I'm going to do with the plant. (Category 3 [or is it 1.5?]: I buy plants at auctions raising money for local or national hosta societies. Just because it's fun. But I do screen the choices first, and ask opinions. How else would I get a piece of 'Red Cadet'?)

As a post-script, I want to challenge Scootersbear's rant about hosta registrations. I don't know how many hostas Mark Zilis is "flood[ing] the market" with, and will not (in this post), attempt to determine what is junk and what is not. Registrations have little to do with this, being purely a function of the AHS; they (understandably) wanted to get hostas registered, because that helps with the function of the society (through Hosta Shows, etc.), and builds enthusiasm for hybridizing by giving ownership of the plants to ordinary gardeners. Not surprisingly, a consequence is that lots of hostas get registered that will never see the market or even more than a half-dozen garden plantings. So what? Mark Zilis may have his name on 400 registrations, but then there are easily 400 registrations from "common" folk (no denigration intended) who take great pleasure in being able to say that a plant they created/discovered is registered. Yay for all of us.

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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by R. Rock »

Hi There,

Perhaps one of those fancy polls could be made...with different categories such as what does you garden need:
blue
green
gold/yellow
mediovariegated
marginal variegated
minis
monsters

I guess that probably wouldn't do much good if your collecting from pictures alone and hoping they somehow fit in a maze of plants. Enevitably that leads to the circus garden.
I think as gardners develope and mature, there is a better sense of what is needed and what is practical. But then, this wisdom is easily wore off by new and upcoming gardners. Near as I can tell, a grand a year for the first several years :o :idea: :o on anything new. It is hard to not want to be a part of that from a business perspective. I see the margins and what little time has went into the plants; it is enough to roll my stomach; seriously :o :-? :eek: I was there once; no problem.

I found out around 2003-2005 what a hosta should consist of to be worthy of time, garden space and money. I spent a fair price on a plant because of the divisions and roots. I planted it in the garden. The next year immediately, and that is important, I had several more eyes and a good size plant that was worthy of the space, money and time. It also gave instant impact in what I was trying to create. Most of all, the damn thing grew. I would say the plant was a solid three years old. Also, importantly, it had went through at least two dormancy's and again important for growth, it had been overwintered/vernalized/hardened off in the real world, outside of a greenhouse.
I thought I had created heaven and had good plants until I discovered why this plant really grew and impressed me. I found out what a plant should be. I believe in this, I take it seriously and it is what I like to pass on to my friends and customers. It is worthy of your name being associated; pride:beer:

I once thought I could sacrifice my name on a job just to keep up w/ what else was being installed and priced at the time. I gave a quote (money amount) the owner wanted, not what I felt and knew should be done. In the end, I did the job my way, threatened to leave more than once and drank several beers and shared jokes w/ the owner at the end. Who was I kidding, I can't do anything halfass. I would have to put money in front of integrity, workmanship and sustainability; just not who I am. :wink: :D :wink: That was the one and only time I tried that in near 27 years of self-employment. Besides that, I got a terrible headache and hangover from all the beer. :lol: :o :lol:

When you have a true heart, such as youself, a sense of trust and honesty plays a big role. Relationships develope into lifelong friendships. Surround yourself w/ good people and the rest falls into place. :cool:

It can be frustrating at times to try and help people from experiences. Some listen and some don't. Some just need to experience things themselves with some "burn". :eek: :hmm: :eek: not much can be done, though I fought it for years w/ frustration and emotion. Now that Paul and you have cured me of my emotion :oops: :roll: :idea: , I found it easier to travel on country roads, only venturing to the highway once in a while. I avoid the freeway at all cost, there is really nothing there for us anyway.

Anyway, when it comes to plants, I have broken it down into a few, what I consider species that I can associate with and understand, such as Rectofolia, Kikutii, Sieboldii, Sieboldiana, Montana, Rupifraga, Longpipes, Hypoleuca, Yingeri, Tokudama and Fortunei. I understand and know how these plants will grow and perform; for the most part. I can base a reasonable judgement and recomendation from there. I have gotten so good from trial and error, I can damnnear speak Japanese!!! :snow: :bd: :pumpkin: :frosty: :lol: , ya right.

When these bloodlines get mixed, a firm evaluation is going to have to be done for a considerable amount of time; many years. Various conditions should be evaluated. I have noticed some of the new introductions too...I can firmly say there are plants that are not going to look like that in time; the genes won't allow it. We will lose ripples, waves, structure, form, and a good dense looking plant. I have only two, maybe three hybridizers I give credit to all or most of their plants. I can mostly go off their name (hybridizers name) for something worthy. I am in no race to get my name in a book and I still prefer to grow things for a few years at least, such as yourself. Guess, this is positive in more ways than one, you get hands on evaluation for confident recomendations and real roots, the heart of a plants performance. :wink: :wink: :wink:
Break...I went to tuck in my five year old and read him a book. The most rewarding and precious of all. :D :cool: :D

This is my current list of plants I would like to have or see in the garden.

I never noticed the pumpkin winked so much, hopefully that means someone agrees with what I had to offer. :pumpkin: :pumpkin: :pumpkin: :pumpkin: :pumpkin: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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ThisIsMelissa
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by ThisIsMelissa »

Chris_W wrote: I also won't bring in anything from the Dutch as I still have no confidence that they've solved their virus (HVX, tobacco rattle, cucumber mosaic, arabis mosaic, etc., etc.) problems. Nematodes are of course another concern with Dutch plants. I wish it wasn't the case, but unfortunately it is.
It's very interesting to get different nurserymen's perspectives on how they prefer to do business.

My experience with gardening (on a serious level) is just 5 years, so I certainly do not have the body of experience as many on this board. But I do know that the Dutch have some bad history to overcome.

My question for you about the Dutch is... how can we know if the plant was TC'd in a Dutch lab? Sure, a lot of times, you can tell by the tag, but what if you have a nursery that re-prints all of their own tags? Are there particular hybridizers we should be concerned about?

Is it bad form to ASK a nurseryman where he got his plugs? And what to do about nurseries that are larger than mom-n-pop shops?... I mean, oftentimes, the answer may not be available who their supplier was...let alone if they're even WILLING to answer!
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by Chris_W »

I don't think that it is bad etiquette to ask a nursery owner where they buy their plants from.

It is tough to describe all the tags out there, and you are right, many use their own, so it is tough to judge that way.

About the Dutch plants, the problem seems to be more with what happens when they are exported. I spoke with a big Dutch grower last summer and asked if it was possible to get plants directly from them, to avoid the washing process, and unfortunately he said that wasn't possible. He acknowledged that they have zero tolerance for viruses, but there still seems to be a problem with it. There are certain plants like Epimedium that are so totally contaminated that it will be next to impossible to get rid of all the viruses in the Dutch grown plants, in my opinion.

And Melissa, the problem isn't with tissue cultured plugs. The Dutch take clean plugs and then field grow the plants from there. Then later they are harvested and processed for export. Once those plants hit the fields it is a crap shoot as too whether they will remain clean from there on out.
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by SWMOgardens »

I buy hostas for their look, not their name. If a hosta looks very similar to one (or ones) I already own, I don't buy it. I listen to my local hosta dealer (nurseryman). If he advises against a certain hosta because it is not proven, or doesn't grow well, I take his advice. If he says "you will like this one" I usually buy it. I own around 150 varieties.
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by jgh »

Oh... I am so dumb! I just spent a half hour writing a thoughtful reply... long-winded perhaps, but valuable - then did a search for an address without letting it switch to the new tab... lost the whole thing! Duh! Ok, I'll try again...
---------

I've been with Chris on this for a long time. Far too many new releases, far too many of them not grown to maturity and tried in real gardens, far too many of them look-alikes, far too many inferior to already existing tried-and-true plants – and far, far too many just marketing of not-true-to-type tissue culture plants that occur whenever doing tc on hosta that should be culled but are instead named and marketed for strictly financial reasons.

In fact, this proliferation is one of the primary issues I write about in an upcoming AHS Journal article. (and yes - that is a little "brag" - one of our members gets a preview edition and has teased me a little - but I'm on pins and needles to see my name in print!)

I'm not as concerned with the issue of registrations. Frankly, I'm kind of come around to the idea that the occasional "vanity" registration isn't such a bad thing. I don't think bad plants should be registered... and I don't think people should keep registering plants that are in all likelihood identical to other plants already registered.

But one of these days I will get around to registering H. 'Derriere.' Years ago I started a batch of tc 'Heart and Soul.' It is one of the three common dark-margined sports of Vanilla Cream, along with 'Peppermint Cream' and 'Wylde Green Cream.' I had a lot of "culls" in that group... several sported to all-yellow, indistinguishable from Vanilla Cream... and even more sported to an all-green plant with the same cute round leaves as the rest of the family. Frankly, I just never got around to digging out that row... I'd remove the occasional H&S for sale and dig around the green plants. Last year, when I needed a plant to put in my chamber pot to enter in the convention contest, I picked the name ‘Derriere’ first – then found a plant to go with it. The nice rounded leaves and plant size just worked for me.

I’m going to register it. No green sport from H&S has been registered. It is not a “reversion” as the grandparent (Vanilla Cream) is yellow. It qualifies as “unique” as far as I can determine. And the name is cute, allowing me to have fun in my garden and to share it with others so they can have fun with it. Is it worthy of general commerce – almost certainly not. I have no intention of trying to market it through a distributor or anything. Still – who is hurt by such a “vanity” registration? It might even prevent the confusion that can crop up when we share plants with friends with non-registered “use names.”

But this endless process of naming undistinguished solid-colored sports of variegated hostas – and then marketing them… that is hard to take. I won’t join in on singling out the unnamed-but-unmistakable wholesaler referred to in an earlier response – because I understand the financial concerns that drive the process and I see the same thing happening in one form or another from all the other wholesalers. I guess we should be pleased that he is more transparent about the origins of those plants that some others in the business. It makes good financial sense to figure out how to sell what used to be thrown away as unavoidable waste in the tissue culture – it just might not make good gardening sense.

I think market issues will continue to support the marketing of new hostas even if they are inferior to plants already available. I think in the process some good hostas will become unavailable. A good example – Olympic Sunrise, a plant I’ve found to be an attractive, unique member of the Halcyon family, was removed from the Naylor catalog – sales weren’t strong and Gary says they need to retire about 20% of the plants in the catalog each year to make room for new ones – all market-driven.

So – we need some serenity about this. There will be lots of new hostas. Many of them will be inferior plants. We have to accept that – but that doesn’t mean we have no recourse. I think a combination of good consumers, good communication, and good retailers (like Chris) can serve us well.

Some of the old-timers here will remember that I started a poll back on Gardenweb many years ago, then carried it over to Hallsons. I’m not sure the last time we did the poll, but I found the summary post for the 2005 poll.

I called it the “Mother-of-all ‘Best Hosta’ polls” I asked people to pick their favorite hosta in each of a series of categories. My goal was to come up with an answer to the most common planting question for gardeners. If I’m planning a hosta planting for a young couple for their new starter-home, I don’t want to make sure they get the newest, most expensive hostas possible. I want them to have the best giant green hosta there is to cover up that downspout and drainpipe. So… the goal was to find out what experienced hosta people would consider the best giant green hosta… the best medium-sized blue hosta (which is still Halcyon, IMNSHO)… the best mini yellow… and so forth.

In the past, I ran these polls when I had time – in the winter. People complained that they couldn’t remember properly, looking out at snow or barren gardens. So let’s make an agreement. I’ll run the poll again this summer. And all of you will respond! The voting has to be based on REAL results – plants you see in your garden or others… no speculations based on inflated catalog descriptions.

(I got a very humorous description this winter from a major wholesaler/retailer extolling the “joys” of figuring out how to describe yet one more –deleted- medium-sized green hosta.”)

In the back of my mind, I have an imaginary brand-new nursery owner who asks the question “I only have room on my shelves for 20 hostas – which are the best 20 to offer to meet the needs of most gardeners. The answer would be, of course, the best in each size and coloration category – the results of our survey.

Here is the link to the last poll. It is obvious there will be some changes and some of these will continue into the next generation “Best Of” list. Keep this in mind and we will do the poll during the growing season – which might not start until July the way things are going in Minnesota this year!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33691&p=283410&hili ... st#p283410
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Chris_W
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by Chris_W »

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the post, but I think if you don't believe people should register identical plants that have already been registered you can kiss your derriere goodbye :lol:

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ThisIsMelissa
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by ThisIsMelissa »

Chris_W wrote:Hi Jim,

Thanks for the post, but I think if you don't believe people should register identical plants that have already been registered you can kiss your derriere goodbye :lol:

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LOL Chris...

But knowing Jim as I do, I think it's quite fitting that he should want a vanity registration of his 'Derriere'. :lol:
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Chris_W
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by Chris_W »

Yes, and then I got thinking that he's "been there, done that" already ;)
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Re: So many new hostas on the market...

Post by thy »

The only bad thing I can see about registering a hosta not ment to go on the market, is using a name some one else would have liked to use.... but who else would like to cal a hosta h. Derriere :roll:
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