Weed Bed treatment?

[morgansrgr8]

My mom hasnt been able to take care of her gardens for a couple years while her hubby was sick. The weeds have taken over and she has lost alot of her hosta. How can she reclaim her flower beds? Should she lift out all the hosta and treat the bed or leave all her plants and treat around them. The worst weed is the thistle. Tons of it growing and I know it comes back after pulling it out. Help is needed please. I have gone over and tried to help weed but its getting crazy. She has to many beds to keep under control. She is an hour away from me and I cant keep both her flower beds and mine under control. I have to go out almost daily and pull up those darn Rose of Sharon seedlings from taking over. Thankyou for the help

[John Polka]

Best to probably remove everything, and replant. But I'd like to see a picture of how bad it really is lol...

To prevent this from happening again....Preen is really awesome(used it) or some say corn gluten meal(heard about it)... but neither of these are very effective after the weeds have established. They are mostly just for germination prevention...So next time you get it cleaned out... use a germination inhibitor..


John

[morgansrgr8]

I'm heading up that way today and taking my camera with me. Hopefully I can part the weeds to take a few pics of the hosta that need reidentified. She has lots of tags that the squirrels played with. I will try to post later tonight. This is such a busy weekend for me. 2 grandkids birthday partys and one wedding. This is the only time I wish I lived closer to everybody. So much time wasted just on driving time.

[boops]

Lift the plants-put them in a temporary home and use the following:

Greensense 20% acidity vinegar" is white vinegar that's four times more potent than the household variety. (“You watch the weeds die.”) Its available in some retail stores in the Southeast, and Rohde's in Garland, Texas (near Dallas) will ship you a gallon for $11.95 plus $8.50 shipping; call 972-864-1934, or visit www.beorganic.com and enter "white vinegar" in the search function. (There's a photo at www.greensense.net.) Although this stuff is incredibly powerful, it is all-natural—and not all high-strength vinegars are. The folks at Rhode’s stress that their Greensense product is a grain based vinegar, not a petroleum-based product like the Acetic Acid used in photography. Once it’s done its work, a grain-based vinegar will return its nutrients to the earth, and allow life to colonize the soil once again. Chemically produced acetic acid will leave toxic resides that will destroy soil life for perhaps years to come; don’t use them.

[John Polka]

nice boops... I didn't know that strong organic vinegar existed... and did not know that about coventional vinegar...
tried to use conventional vinegar as an herbicide... full strength, a week ago in the vegetable garden.. it did not phase the crab grass or the morning glory
John

[boops]

evidently regular weed killer does not totally kill off Thistle Weeds and this really strong vinegar does the job.

[Tigger]

Lift the plants-put them in a temporary home and use the following:

Greensense 20% acidity vinegar" is white vinegar that's four times more potent than the household variety.... The folks at Rhode’s stress that their Greensense product is a grain based vinegar, not a petroleum-based product like the Acetic Acid used in photography. Once it’s done its work, a grain-based vinegar will return its nutrients to the earth, and allow life to colonize the soil once again. Chemically produced acetic acid will leave toxic resides that will destroy soil life for perhaps years to come; don’t use them.

The chemist in me wants to debunk this. Either way, the acetic acid has been distilled to purity and then diluted with water. I find it unlikely that "toxic residues" will be present in the chemically-produced acetic acid. But you can make your own informed decision. It's probably easier to get this fermentation-based vinegar than it is to find developer's "technical grade" acetic acid these days!

There's a lot of good to be said about naturally-derived products, but in this case either weed-killer is likely to be better than a "big gun" herbicide. And I think we can all attest that RoundUp doesn't do much for thistles.

[morgansrgr8]

This is my moms gardens. The one by the driveway has to be completely moved. There used to be a tree but the utility company came and cut it down. Now its all in sun and very unhappy. Will be going over next week to work on it. Thank goodness the temps will be lower to work outside. Hopefully we can get these hosta beds under control again.

[morgansrgr8]

How long would you have to leave the plants out of the flower bed to use the vinegar? Finding a place without weeds at her house is going to be a real challenge. I suppose we could weed one bed put in the temporary plants and just do one bed at a time that way. Also wondering how safe it would be that close to the Koi Pond. I think we need to get that bed back from the pond a bit. Cant see any of her mini's but we did find a few of them in the weeds today.

[guardbear]

Greensense 20% acidity vinegar" is white vinegar that's four times more potent than the household variety.... The folks at Rhode’s stress that their Greensense product is a grain based vinegar, not a petroleum-based product like the Acetic Acid used in photography. Once it’s done its work, a grain-based vinegar will return its nutrients to the earth, and allow life to colonize the soil once again. Chemically produced acetic acid will leave toxic resides that will destroy soil life for perhaps years to come; don’t use them.

[/quote]

I need to take a shot at this and maybe clarify a bit, and perhaps explain what's going on with use of vinegar.

Ah, I love "green marketing" !!! Acetic acid is the same chemical regardless of how it is made. The chemical formula is C2H4O2 and it is produced either "naturally" by fermentation of ethyl alcohol or "synthetically" by several different chemical processes. BTW, fermentation is a chemical process as well, it's just that is done by organisms (bacteria), so I suppose this is how the green gurus justify calling it "natural or organic". The grain is simply the source of the ethyl alcohol (exactly the same process that produces ethanol fuel made from corn; ethanol=ethyl alcohol, two names for the same chemical), and wood, potatoes, grass, sugar, etc. could be used instead of grain. There is no toxic residue in synthetically produced acetic acid, however; a 20% solution of vinegar (diluted acetic acid) will indeed ""destroy soil life for perhaps years to come".

Rhodes/Greensense no longer sells a 20% product and my guess is because they found out that it is really HAZARDOUS stuff. Just because a chemical is claimed as natural or organic does not make it safe. At 20% concentration, the product is regulated as a hazardous material in commerce/transportation by DOT, whereas at the 8% concentration they now offer it is not. Also, at 20% the stuff is very dangerous for people working with it OR using it at home. (they repackage the stuff, they don't make it -- some chemical company actually makes the 20% conc. vinegar) and requires lots of workplace safety procedures (OSHA regulated).

The acid (vinegar) works by lowering soil pH (by making it REALLY acid) to the point that it kills all the living biota that makes soil what it is. That is, the myriad of worms, bacteria, and fungi that turn dead stuff into plant food. For me at least, the first problem with this is how much 20% acid (or 5-6% household vinegar) does one use to achieve a low enough pH? And how many times does one have to apply it so that the acid environment is maintained long enough to kill everything? And if one achieves this, how long will it take for life to return? That is, how long will it take for Mom nature to raise the pH back to or close to neutral? Eventually this will happen but could take years. The same folks that sell you the strong vinegar will also sell you the natural alkaline products (lime, ashes, etc.) to add back into the acid soil to speed the neutralization process. Next problem - how much alkaline stuff does one need to get the right soil pH? How long will the neutralization take? Then one may likely need to re-colonize the living biota – worms, bacteria, etc. For me at least, this approach has too many unknowns and destroys the very “nature” I’m trying to create in my garden. I can see doing this IF one has a tough weed here or there and thus contains this sterilization process to a very small area that is surrounded by a natural soil environment, but the unknowns of how much to use and how long to wait are still present. Although the "natural" claim makes it sound appealing, the vinegar works by using its hazardous characteristic of acidity - a characteristic that destroys metal and living tissue both.

With thistles, it's the horrendous root system that has to be attacked. And, the type of chemical thistle control one chooses depends on what kind of thistles one has. Different herbicides are recommended for different species, and the method of application and time of year it's done also depends on what kind of thistle. My own choice would be to selectively use a systemic herbicide on each individual plant and forego wiping out all life in my soil for some unknown period of time. It may be that there is no herbicide available to homeowners that actually works on thistles and one may have to engage a licensed pesticide professional to have access to anything effective. Some internet research could help with this. And you may consider contacting the University of Kansas agricultural folks. Thistle is a noxious weed in Kansas and in some circumstances people are required to control it on their property, so the university folks that assist farmers would likely have good information. You need to identify what actual chemical (the active ingredient) will work as an effective herbicide, and then determine IF it is available as a product for home use. From the pics I can't tell what is thistle is what is some other type of weed, but you may need to use more that one product as many systemic herbicides are very selective.

I like Bonide products. I have successfully used Bonide Stump and Vine Killer to control all sorts of woody plants and vines and broad-leafed weeds after years of digging them out only to have them grow back sooner or later - it has an applicator so you can apply it to just one plant as a concentrate and not spray it everywhere. Or, it can be diluted and used as a spray to control dandelions, plantain, etc. The active ingredient is triclopyr and is the only thing that was effective on the wild viotets that covered about 30% of my yard and garden. Fertilome also makes a triclopyr product that works; the Ortho formulation is pretty worthless. I would recommend contacting Bonide to find out if they have something available that could be used for your needs. The herbicides available for home use are not what I'd consider "big guns" as they degrade really rapidly and are not the long-term, persistent chemicals of the past. One still has to follow label directions carefully however for maximum environmental protection.

All in all, that's a big chore you have to get things under control once again. I had to do this last year at my very elderly Mom's house (that was also my Grandmother's gardens) so I can understand what you're facing. There is also an option to temporary move the hostas and mechanically dig out the weed and brush roots (some hired hands with bigger equipment maybe?)-- still labor intensive however and would likely require some work in seasons to come. It may take more than one year to get where you want to be, but you'll get there.

Best regards
Linda

[boops]

So much for the vinegar Idea.
Is the root system of Thistle Weed similar to the ridiculous amount of Ivy I have in my yard that actually strangled a couple of my pine trees? Or is it worse like Bamboo?

[morgansrgr8]

Thankyou so very much for all the great information. I Was hoping for a simple solution but I knew better. I have thistle growing in my own gardens and go out once a week to repull them out. We even go knock down the thistle in the neighbors pasture so the dont reseed and blow more into the garden. I think I am winning here at home, the thistle are getting smaller. Somehow I need to get my mom motivated to keep the thistle down at her house. After Dad died my sisters keep her busy with grandkids and such but yard work in not on the agenda. Me I am alot farther away, so I have to set dates to go up and work on the yard. Its just frustrating to see her place going to weed. And she is a packrat. My sisters need to stop taking her to YARD SALES!!!!!!!!!!
So I think the plan is to go pull weeds this year and next year make sure to go once a week starting in the spring and not let it get grown over. I'm tired already just thinking about it. The insides are another story and next year will talk her into having her own yard sale. My sisters had better help with that one.

[boops]

I feel for you-doing the same thing at my daughters house for two and a half years now. Dug up the horrid Lily of the Valley in the sun garden-that took a week last year still popping up here and there. Ripping out overgrown Montauk Daisy plants around a pool (????-who plants fall blooming plants around a pool that is closed that time of year) Ripping out Rose of Sharon trees (sale of which should be outlawed) and seedlings. Cutting back overgrown Forsythia from the neighbors yard-, ripping out Spirea that is pretty invasive also and the overgrown Vinca(next item to kill). I could go on and on. It will be another two years before its all under control and manageable. I replaced every plant I ripped out with appropriate plants for the sun situation and pool side look. Non invasive, easy to move plants. And lets not talk about the Yucca all over the place, Wild Bittersweet vines from the neighbors. A bulldozer would have been an easier alternative.

[jgh]

I'm very skeptical of treatments that are recommended because they are "organic" or "natural." Arsenic is natural = it's an element found in minerals. Cyanide is a natural plant extract. Just because something is found in our homes doesn't make it safer or better. Many household products are fatal.

For years people were told not to use nasty chemicals to kill creeping charlie... we were supposed to use our freindly 20 mule team Borax instead... and then we found that the build up in the soil after a couple of uses made the soil virtually permanently contaminated and toxic.

Heck, even boiling water will kill weeds - but we have to be a little practical, too. I can't see boiling a few hundred gallons of water and carrying them around the garden very safe or sensible.

Vinegar is an acid. It will acidify the soil. I've heard very different opinions on how well it works, but it can actually be a rather expensive product. I can't find any scientific support for its effectiveness on weeds... or how often you can use it... or what is the most effective dillution rate... or...

If I had this garden to take care of... with the distance of driving involved... I'd probably pick the most obvious area, dig any plants I want to keep and temporarily pot them - then I'd use Roundup. Yes, you have to be careful with any chemical around the water feature... but used properly, Roundup will be neutralized when it hits the soil and will not leave a residue. I killed a nice stand of thistle last week with Roundup... I know it doesn't work on all of them, but I'd start with that.

(Note - I hate Monsanto... and I hate what some of their profit-based decisions are doing to the world... but Roundup is a pretty good chemical. Used properly, it is safer than many so-called "natural" products. Few products have been tested and studied as much as Roundup and it has held up well. I know Denmark claimed to have found water contamination remaining after use, but many other studies contradict it and one has to suspect overspray directly into the water...)

The most important part is to kill, or at least cut down, the weeds before they bloom and drop their seeds. Seeds can lay dormant in the soil for many years... that's why we have to keep weeding and it takes several years before our garden weed problem drops off to just new seeds blowing in. If I couldn't take care of an area - I'd cut it down. Mow and rake. The hostas will come back, even if trimmed to 3"... but the task would become more manageable after than and seed production would be minimal.

[Linda P]

I'll agree with jgh on all of this, and then ask a question or two for clarification of your situation.
Does your mom enjoy her garden when it's cleaned up? Is the problem just that it got out of control,
and once you help her get it back, will she maintain it, or will you have to continue? I helped with my
mom's garden the last year of her life because it was so important for her quality of life to see it out
there, still looking beautiful. I also took care of it for the next couple of years while my dad lived
in the house, because he very much enjoyed looking at everything that Mom had planted, but was not
always able to figure out what was a weed and what was a flower. He kept a huge veggie garden, so
it wasn't the work involved that he couldn't do, it was actually not being able to see well enough to tell
what was what in the flower garden. Back to your mom; Would it work better to just consolidate her
remaining perennials into one spot, and give up trying to keep up the rest of it? If she is really enthused
about getting it back into shape and keeping it that way, then working at getting it all cleaned up would
be worthwhile. If she doesn't care enough about it to try to maintain it, or it isn't physically possible for
her to do so, then it might be time to rethink the plan, much as it would pain you to see it go.
If you're an hour away, then it might not be feasible to keep up as the whole garden, considering that you
also have your own garden at home to maintain. I'm sure you've thought of a lot of this, but sometimes it
does take an outside idea or two, especially when it may be time to consider a different option.
That is always hard for me. Letting Mom's garden go when Dad moved to town was a huge struggle for me,
but I could not physically keep it up. My disabled brother still lives in the house, so I have been watching the garden
be overun by weeds little by little over the years. He cannot keep it up, and his caretaker has no interest
and has too much else to do. He can't quite let me go in and dig it all up, which would look better, so it
just sits there and slowly dies. Sad, but I'm reconciled to it. Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide!

guardbear, thanks for the reminder about the brush and vine killer. I have a nasty bunch of bindweed that
I'm trying to get rid of. Roundup doesn't do it, even when I tried the 'coil the vine in a jar of Roundup' method
that has worked in the past. Methinks this weed has developed resistance.

[guardbear]

Hi Linda
Yep the triclopyr works on bindweed really well. I had an area with bindweed that I tried for 5 years to control by digging and finally 2 years ago used the bonide product. I like the applicator because I can paint it on individual leaves of the weed and not damage the ornamentals in the bed.

I saw some bindweed coming up this morning while watering so I'm off to paint them now.

Linda

[boops]

I myself never used the Vinegar treatment-I don't have Thistle weeds. Beginning to be sorry I mentioned it.
I use roundup sparingly or poison ivy killer for the poison ivy. ALL the regular ivy areas I have cleaned up (30 feet x 100 feet) I did by hand-pulling it out by the roots and also pulling to find the huge (2" around) vines coming from my neighbors yard and cutting it off and every year cutting it off as it tries to grow back. I used no herbicides to get rid of it either. I have used boiling water to kill the lily of the valley at my daughters house, but it did not kill the root mat a foot and a half down. So back to the spade and elbow grease (and a lot of cursing ) I googled the thistle weed and that web site came up, it was just a suggestion. I am a proponent of pulling things out by the roots if possible. I can't see that the Thistle weed is any more difficult to get rid of than ivy. I have one plant I am dying to get rid of and that is Wisteria. I have cut it down to the ground about 10 times and it keeps coming back of course. In the 30 years I have had it it never has flowered. I know I have to cut it down and drill holes and pour stump killer into it, kind of nervous about doing that.
Back to the Forum subject, maybe potting the Hosta would work out better, are there a lot of plants to rescue? I see so many people on this forum that pot their hostas-it must work out well as they all look beautiful.
Anyway, good luck with your project and hope it all works out for you and your mom.

[morgansrgr8]

Talked to mom this morning and she wants to start with the mini bed around the pond. She put it to close to the pond and the bricks keep falling in. Sooo we have to move it all back (after climbing into the pond to retrieve bricks) Two years ago I weeded out the bed beside the house but you can see what that looks like now. I suggested putting hosta there temperarily but she says the problem there is its to dry and she keeps losing hosta there. In the same conversation she is going out to buy soaker hoses. But not for that bed. (sigh) Well one at a time. Time will tell whether or not she will keep up with the weeding. Somehow I dont think so. She enjoys spending time with grandkids and shopping. I know she will bring home at least 8 more hosta from the August hosta auction. Now where will she put those? She has pots of plants she has bought and not planted yet. I have no idea how they have survived this long because she doesnt water them. She really does need to consolidate into one area that she can keep control of but I cant convince her into that yet. Well I had better get moving. Got a wedding to get ready for.

[rockNhostas]

If I were faced with this challenge, I think I would dig the hostas, or other plants out first, then I would smother the weed area. I have done that at times and it does work pretty effectively. First mow down the weeds and then cover them, either with a heavy plastic tarp, or if you can find some, some old carpeting. You'll have to secure it down with brick or rocks, and leave it for about a month or so before checking it. Most of the weeds will die. Then you could till it up and maybe add some new soil to build the beds up a bit, and give it a dose of Preen. If she isn't going to be good at maintaining it, I would use some good landscaping fabric over majority of the bed, covered by a good layer of mulch, with holes cut where you are going to replant the hostas. Good luck with everything.

[thy]

Tyoed a long tail, then forgot tohook up my PC..and it is in Cyberspace

But thanks to he chemists.. I will be back

Linda P typed my thoughts

It is your mumsgarden, the garden she can have and maintaine, not yours
So stopp and think, - what is possible?, -what can she do.?. test it during a familly work together day, with all prepaired, coffee, food and beverage- no reason to find things or other ways to slip the hard work... let your mom find her limits
Jgh.. good idea with the mover at least between the plants... I have a tiny curtter thingy, it is all about preventing more seeds