Breed banning-right or wrong

[caliloo]

Well - I personally do not believe "banning" a particular breed will solve anything. Like with people, I truly believe it is more a case of "nuture" then "nature". There will always be the "Jeffrey Daumers" of the human world and the canine world, but those truly evil creatures are very rare in both.

Dogs (and children) are mostly a product of their environment. If someone can't create a suitable environment to nuture the dog in a structured loving home, then they have no business owning one of any breed IMHO.

My next door neighbor has a German Shorthair Pointer that definitely falls into the category of "untrustworthy". This is a rescue dog they adopted that had been abused and they insist that she is kind hearted and friendly with everyone. They asked me to take care of her over a few days last winter (at her house, not mine) and that dog cowered and growled at me every time I opened the door. This put me on my guard as far as letting my kids play outside whenever she is out (she is NEVER on a leash). We were having a little picnic over Memorial Day and the neighbor stopped over with the dog off lead again. I almost had a stroke when one of my other neighbors was holding her 7 month old baby in the dogs face to give it kisses and the dog was growling very low. No one noticed the growl except me and I quickly asked to hold the baby to get her away from the dog. This dog is a ticking time bomb in a neighborhood full of kids and speaking to the owners is completely pointless. They "know" the dog is a cream puff and wouldn't hurt a fly. I wecome suggestions on how to deal with this before one of the kids does get hurt.

Anyway, thanks for letting ME rant.

Alexa

[Old earth dog]

Alexa, have you discussed this dog with your neighbors? I think that would be an important first step. Even though they may deny it (very common) they should know your feelings on the matter. This is a perfect example of one of the things I mentioned. Even if they see it, putting their head in the sand makes it all go away.

[Kas]

When we were looking for a dog, I spent months reading AKC and other breed books, checking out videos and talking to people about their dogs. I was looking at German Shepard Dogs, Boxers, Pugs, and Beagles as good kid dogs. We didn't want the long hair issue with a Golden, Labs are smelly (sorry Lab fans), and Dalmations were not developed as a breed to be family dogs, but to guard carriages by running underneath them and attacking anyone or anything that got too close. Not the heritage that screams "Kid dog". Plus we had a friend who's Dalmation mauled their maid's grandaughter. They promptly had the dog put down.

I ruled out the GSDs as herders. I didn't want one scaring neighbor kids with the herding behavior. Don't ask me why now. I grew up with GSDs and we were never herded! Beagles are known for eating their own poop. Nuff said! Pugs eyes poke out just a little too much to be subjected to little boys. Nuff said again! That left Boxers. So we started visiting Boxer puppies. We got a female and will get another one as our next dog. We like Boxers! Liberty will not let the boys (10 and 8) pick on her, but the three year old gets away with murder! As a baby, she stepped on Lib's face, pulled her ears, bobbed her on the nose and other things Lib would never take from the boys. What a good dog! She just lays there and looks at me sadly "Please get this thing off me!" Our neighbors dog, on the other hand, has snapped at Heather a couple of times. Both times were unprovoked unless you call petting provoked. I won't let that dog near my kids any more. My neighbor got a little testy when I told her why I wanted the dog put out back while Heather was there. She blamed Heather. My thought is if Liberty lets Heather pull her lips off, Jaz should at least let Heather pet her without snapping.

On Pit Bulls, they scare me. The first ones I met belonged to my DH's (then my boyfriend) highschool friends. The dogs were named Arnold and Fred. They were so sweet! Arnold loved it when you massaged the muscles on his head. But Jeff and Harold (the dog's owners) never let the dogs out by themselves. They knew the predictable response to a cat or small dog that sweet Fred and Arnold would have. It is a combo of both nature and nurture. Sorry for the long ramblings!

Kas

[Old earth dog]

"She blamed Heather"! Pretty much says it all in a nutshell doesn't it!!

[caliloo]

I can believe your story about your neighbors dog and that she would blame the child. I fear we would ahve the same reaction from my neighbor and the GSP.

Unfortunately, I have mentioned my concerns about the dog to my neighbor and he waves me off saying she is as sweet and docile as any dog that walks. Unfortunately, that just isn't the case. She is one of those animals that when she is outside and sees someone she doesn't know she tucks her tail, hunches her back and slinks back to the house growling really low. Neighbor says it's because she is so shy and sweet. In the mean time I hold my breath everytime they let her out (always off lead) and there are kids playing, riding bikes, etc in the neighborhood. Of course, there is one family of kids that I wouldn't mind if she scared them back to their own yard, but I would still hate to see any of them hurt.

Alexa

[Justme]

Eight years ago, my Brother and his wife were on their own porch, old fashioned kind, go up several steps, stone wall all around except at the steps, covered. Anyway they were there her old, old chihuahua, didn't even have teeth. Someone was walking, on a leash, their large dog (don't remember breed for sure, German Shephard, Rottie?) Their dog broke loose, ran onto the porch, grabbed the little dog, shook it, broke its neck! Sis-in-laws father ran to grab his gun, brother called cops, other dogs owners grabbed him and ran.

Cops came and threatened to give my brother and wife a ticket! Their dog was the one not on a leash! (It was on their porch, 12 or 13 years old and didn't have teeth!) The other dogs owners weren't held to any responsibility as their dog was on a leash! The fact that they couldn't control it wasn't an issue. Hope it never got anyones kid down the road. Brother moved shortly after that.

Tami

[Old earth dog]

That is SO WRONG!!
In many areas, if the dog is on it's own property, and under voice control, it doesn't have to be leashed.
Laws or not, If a dog comes on MY property and harms MY dog/family/etc, I'm going to be paying a fine for discharging a firearm within a restricted area, and/or be willing to face animal cruelty laws.........at the very least!
!!You can educate the ignorant, but ya can't fix stupid!!

[wishiwere]

AMEN~ Well said!

[r_leblanc]

As a man who has been around most breeds & also have bred several kinds ,I believe there is no such thing as bad dangerous breeds.Any dog of any breed will bite for one reason or another.There are only bad breeders & bad dog owners.The first thing one has to do is breed the right Sire to the right Dam.One must be very careful in checking out the dogs pedegree.You can breed out unwanted traits & breed in desired traits.Second thing is to interview a buyer And if he or she does not have enough knowledge about the training of dogs,a good breeder has the duty to help this person in training & other useful information.Do you know that the breed that has biten more than any other breed.You may not believe this but it's the Labrador retriever for one reason or another.You can check this out on the Net.So...Banning the Pit Bull & what breed is next.The Doberman,The Rottweiler,The German Shepard,the Great Dane,The Boxer & how about the Bull Mastif.I say,don't ban the breed,ban the bad breeders & puppy mills.You know,a loaded gun does not fire itself,a person fires it,enough said

[Ginger]

They are trying to ban pit bulls here in OK now. One bit off the arm of a 3 year old who put his hand threw the chain fence and through a hole in the stockade fence on the other side. The owner had TEN, count them, 10.. pitbulls in his yard and house! Although I am very careful around any dog I do not know, I don't believe banning the dogs is the solution. Owers who do not train and handle their dogs correctly is the problem as well as bad breeding. If we could get rid of puppy mills, make owners of dogs who have issues get extra insurance and require them and the dog to go to training I think that would help alot more than banning a breed.
If they ever try to ban Boxers, I am moving to Mexico!

Ginger

[r_leblanc]

Well - I personally do not believe "banning" a particular breed will solve anything. Like with people, I truly believe it is more a case of "nuture" then "nature". There will always be the "Jeffrey Daumers" of the human world and the canine world, but those truly evil creatures are very rare in both.

Dogs (and children) are mostly a product of their environment. If someone can't create a suitable environment to nuture the dog in a structured loving home, then they have no business owning one of any breed IMHO.

My next door neighbor has a German Shorthair Pointer that definitely falls into the category of "untrustworthy". This is a rescue dog they adopted that had been abused and they insist that she is kind hearted and friendly with everyone. They asked me to take care of her over a few days last winter (at her house, not mine) and that dog cowered and growled at me every time I opened the door. This put me on my guard as far as letting my kids play outside whenever she is out (she is NEVER on a leash). We were having a little picnic over Memorial Day and the neighbor stopped over with the dog off lead again. I almost had a stroke when one of my other neighbors was holding her 7 month old baby in the dogs face to give it kisses and the dog was growling very low. No one noticed the growl except me and I quickly asked to hold the baby to get her away from the dog. This dog is a ticking time bomb in a neighborhood full of kids and speaking to the owners is completely pointless. They "know" the dog is a cream puff and wouldn't hurt a fly. I wecome suggestions on how to deal with this before one of the kids does get hurt.

Anyway, thanks for letting ME rant.

Alexa

Hi,that German short hair of your neighbor's is a fear biter.They can be corrected by a knowlegeable trainer.If the owner does not want to pay a trainer to correct this problem then he is a ticking time bomb & should be euthanized before someone is hurt very badly or a child killed.I aquired my male Drahthaar at the age of one & a half years old.He was abused by the former owner who was a member of our Breed club.Not only did he abuse the animal but he & his wife went to Florida for 2 weeks & left no one to care for the dog or his cattle either.We have a breed warden who over sees all owners & breeders of the Drahthaar.Our breed warden went to check on this person & found the dog on a 2 foot chain attached to a dog house with no covering for the door & the other end attached to a metal collar that had spikes all around the inside one half inch in length.It was -40 degrees for a week & the dog had no food.He was eating snow for water & was at 40 lbs when I saw him.This member was charged & fined quite heavily.He was also banned for having livestock on his farm for five years.He was kicked out of Drahthaar Group Canada as well.The club wanted to euthanize the dog but I offered to buy him from the club.I took him home & brought him back to health from 40 lbs up to 120 lbs.I soon found out that he was a fear biter & bit me pretty hard on the shoulder.I did some soul searching for a week & decided he was worth saving.It took me 7 months to gain his trust & correct this problem of fear biting.That was in 1994 & that is the same dog I have posted (Addi Vom Lakeshore)To this day,he has not bitten anyone else & has his confidence back.So I know, as a breeder & trainer,this can be corrected.By the way,when Germany was developing the Drahthaar,the German Short Haired pointer is one of the breeds that came out of the breeding experiments as were several other breeds.The Drahthaar has not been changed now in one hundred years & Germany jealously guards the breed & controls all Drahthaar Breed clubs that we don't introduce any new genes from other breeds.Hope this owner does the right thing by this Pointer & sorry I made this such a long reply....Ron

[caliloo]

Not sure if anyone else saw this, but it was worth posting for those who didn;t....

Alexa

______________________________________________
Denver Pit Bull Owners in a Panic Over Ban By MEGAN McCLOSKEY, Associated Press Writer
8 minutes ago



A few weeks ago, two police cars and two animal control vehicles pulled up at the home of Stef'ny Steffan looking for her beloved 4-year-old pit bull, Xena. Seven officers hauled the animal off to the city shelter, putting her on death row. Xena became an outlaw after Denver won a court fight and reinstated one of the toughest pit-bull bans in the nation.

Since May, more than 380 dogs have been impounded and at least 260 destroyed — an average of more than three a day.

Dog owners are in a panic. Some are using an underground railroad of sorts, sending their pets to live elsewhere or hiding them from authorities. City officials would not estimate how many people might be violating the ordinance.

Some owners, like Steffan, have won a reprieve for their pets with help from a rescue group. The group got Xena released by signing an affidavit stating that the animal would never return to Denver. The group took the dog to Mariah's Promise in Divide, an animal sanctuary that has accepted more than three dozen pit bulls from Denver.

For Steffan and her partner, Gina Black, leaving Xena 60 miles from home was a lousy option but the only one they had.

"It's safer than animal control. Safer than keeping her underground — at least she'll be able to play now," Steffan said. "But she'll miss us. We're her pack."

Denver is one of three major metropolitan areas, along with Miami and Cincinnati, to ban pit bulls, according to Glen Bui, vice president of the American Canine Foundation.

Pit bull typically describes three kinds of dogs — the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. But Denver's ban applies to any dog that looks like a pit bull. The animal's actual behavior does not matter.

City Councilman Charlie Brown said that in his judgment, "pit bulls are trained to attack. They're bred to do that."

Critics of the ban use words like "annihilation" and "genocide," and the city shelter has received e-mails likening animal control officers to Nazis.

"Breed bans are just a knee-jerk reaction to something that happened in the community," Bui said.

Denver banned pit bulls in 1989 after dogs mauled a minister and killed a boy in separate attacks. The Legislature passed a law in 2004 that prohibited breed-specific bans, but the city sued and a judge ruled in April the law was an unconstitutional violation of local control.

Critics of the ordinance say that a blanket ban on an entire breed is misguided that the law should instead target irresponsible owners and all dangerous dogs.

"If anyone says one dog is more likely to kill — unless there's a study out there that I haven't seen — that's not based on scientific data," said Julie Gilchrist, a doctor at the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention who researches dog bites.

The CDC, the American Veterinary Medical Association and the Humane Society of the United States examined 20 years of dog-bite data and concluded that pit bulls and Rottweilers caused the most deaths.

But the researchers also noted that fatal attacks represent a small proportion of dog-bite injuries and that the number of bites per breed simply seems to rise with their popularity.

At the city shelter, pit bulls are cordoned off from other dogs in what has become death row. Nearly 100 pit bulls have been released to live outside the county. A nonresident must guarantee the dog will never return to Denver.

Sonya Dias, who is moving out of Denver because of the ban, said she was a little intimidated by her pit bull when she first saw him. But "when I said, `Hey little doggie,' his whole body just started wagging." Gryffindor is staying at Mariah's Promise until Dias sells her home.

"He's been dangerous to a couple of pairs of shoes and some mini-blinds," Dias said. "But otherwise he's a jewel."

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On the Net:

American Canine Foundation: http://www.acavet.com