My first attempt at hybridizing

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DBoweMD
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Post by DBoweMD »

If I collect and freeze pollen how long does it stay viable?
Recommended method for storing?

Supposed to be viable for years. I have mine in test tubes. Others have used little squares of tin foil. You want to keep them on the dry side. I have had a little luck using frozen Plantaginea pollen. My impression is that frozen is not nearly as effective as the fresh stuff.

Any success stories with using Lachman pollen on others?
no experience here. I heard someone got streaked seedlings from streaked pollen donor on a non streaked pod parent, but it is not the rule, and could have been a random event.

How's Spilt Milk, Seventh Heaven, Misty Gold, & Breeders
Choice for pod parents?
How about for pollen donors.
I've heard of spilt milk producing some streaked babies. Breeder's choice is named appropriately but I don't have it. I have some young seedlings from it. No experience with the others.

If a streaked Hosta reverts to non streaked form is it still
a good candidate for pod parent? For pollen?

It will not give you streaked babies if none of the leaves are streaked.
marriedtomud
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Post by marriedtomud »

Hi Dave
Good advice ... thanks.

The tape is a temporary step ... I've ordered hanging tage that are being mailed out today. The company I ordered them from is working with me to develop a set of hanging tags that are color coded and will be able to stand the elements a little better.

In this case the pic of the Niagra Falls seedling is a little deceiving. He only has one scape and I've only used Montana Aureomarginata pollen on him so far. That tape represents all the rows I've done.

I've been putting the tape at the base of each flower pollinated on WL since the first day because he gets different pollen on each scape daily ... he has six scapes in various degrees of development. One has opened four rows and one has nothing opened yet. On the back of each small leaf where the flower forms I've written the initials of the pollen donor. Just in case.


The anthers and filaments were removed from WL to use on other plants. They were removed from each pollinated
flower to prevent possible comingling of the flowers own
pollen with what I chose to fertilize it with or to save the pollen for later use.

The tags will be a big help. So will storing pollen for long term. There was almost nothing availabe for use after the nights rain.

How do you store your pollen for short or long term Dave?

Curtis/m2m

This afternoon two additional flowers ripened on WL.
The crosses were August Moon & Niagra Falls Seedling

WL ... Tape and Flower leaf record
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WL ... Other side crossed with AM
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WL ... Pollen donor on flower leaf ... Sweetie
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WL x NFS
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Niagra Falls Seedling ... Two floweres on row
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NFS ... Four flowers on row ... one broke off
Image[/img]
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renaldo75
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Post by renaldo75 »

From reading a post that Mr. LM made recently on Hostapix, I can tell you a bit about pollen storage.

Lay it out on a piece of paper to dry for several days after you pick it. It will be nice & fluffy when it's dry. Then you can store in the freezer using whatever method works for you. He suggests using gelcaps. He tapes a row of gelcaps filled with pollen to duct tape & marks the pollen donor on the tape at each gelcap. Then he puts another piece of duct tape over the gelcaps [on the other side] & rolls the tape/gelcaps up & stores them in the freezer. The pollen must be dry for this to work or it will rot/mold in the freezer. He says the pollen will remain viable for years this way.

I know someone else who uses the week or month pill trays. The week ones would be handy to store in for current crosses. The month ones would be handy to store for longer periods & would be easy to stack. And a small piece of tape with the donor could be put on each individual lid.
GO HAWKEYES!!!

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Seedseller1
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Post by Seedseller1 »

Hi again, Curtis.

The method I use for storing pollen is such: I snip the filaments directly into a pint freezer containor, and label of course.

(clickable)

Image


Then I dump the contents onto a sheet of paper (again, labeled) and use a dental pic to remove the anther from the filament. This seems easiest done right away, as the filaments tend to get mushy when they begin to dry. I place the pic on the filiment where it curves just before the anther, and gently "roll" it so the oppisite end rises off the paper making it easier to grab and this also takes the anther to a "face up" position. Then I simply slide the pic under the anther and pop it off the filiment:

Image


The anthers will dry overnight if you have low humidity (air conditioner). I got these containers free from our local veterinary office and the labels are from tupperware for labeling freezer containers:

Image

I cut a "Q-tip" (with a plastic tube center rather than cardboard) in half and use this as my pollen applicator, and store it right in the containor with the pollen. A piece of 14 gauge wire (or a toothpick)fits nicely down the cut off end of the Q-tip to use as a handle or to retrieve the Q-tip from the container while it is in an upright position so you don't have to worry about shaking the anthers out to get it. Just remember to take all precautions against contamination when working from one pollen donor to another (each pollen on its own sheet of paper, cleaning your tools between each, etc.) Many times I find myself crossing all the flowers with the same pollen one day, and switching to something else the next, so I only need to take one tube with me. This allows me to see what takes and what doesn't, and if it works I'll probably do several flowers with the same cross eventually. You have to keep in mind the documentation involved when growing out these seeds if you end up with only one pod of a cross and it only contains a few viable seeds-- :wink:
Good luck!
marriedtomud
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Post by marriedtomud »

Renaldo
Thanks again for good info. I'm not to sure about me and duct tape though ... Lol ... I'll end up with the pollen stuck to it and it to me for sure.

Thanks again Mike for sharing your process and especially for posting the great pictoral. I have a question (sure to not be the last) about the anthers you're cutting off.
They look as though they don't have much pollen on them. Do they ripen later when you take them out or is
that the pollen you use? Most of this mornings anthers
looked like that ... I thought they weren't useful because they didn't have good fluffy pollen. Sweetie had really dry fluffy pollen because he was out of the rain (wish I had taken a good pic) so thats what I used on WL.

I like your vet sample bottles and the idea for using half
a Q-tip. What do they call those vials?

How about for short term storage ... do you use the same procedure for pollen you're saving for a few days?

Curtis/m2m
Seedseller1
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Post by Seedseller1 »

Curtis,

I don't know what the vials are called or used for. I have some glass blood sample vials with rubber stoppers but they are all full of last years pollen. When I stopped in to see if they had some of the glass ones like I had been using, the aide said that they did, but they had a liquid in them. She stated if these plastic ones would work she could just give them to me at no charge. I actually like using them better because you don't have to keep track of the stopper and you can close them one-handed.

I should have taken the time to take clearer pic's in my previous post, but those anthers do have fluffy pollen on them. If you look again at the pic with the vials, you can even see a few grains on the paper directly above the vial. This particular sample doesn't have copious amounts of pollen even in the best conditions--you will find that some hostas produce vast amounts and some very little. If picked prematurely, some will turn fluffy in a few hours, others don't seem to. I never worry about it as long as I have enough to "color" the stigma (rub an anther on your white T-shirt to check :lol: :lol: ). If I ever use pollen "short time" it is generally only fresh pollen when both pod and pollen plant are flowering at the same time--and when the donor has very few flowers, otherwise, I collect as much as reasonable and toss it in the freezer :P .
marriedtomud
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Post by marriedtomud »

Lots to learn with this.

The crosses I want to do in future are going to take way
more planning. I want to use WL pollen on QOTS, Spilled Milk, ADG, Sun Power, Sagae, Elvis Lives ... the list just goes on ... but their flowering seasons are long gone just as his is starting. Saving pollen from him now for next season will make these crosses available.
Conversely ... saving their pollen for his flowers will have to be done also. No wonder you see lots of OP crosses.

The best game plan might be for me to try and figure out in advance which crosses I'd like to try (big picture) and make preparations for saving pollen from ALL the participants. The pod parent is critical but the pollen has
to be available also.


No insects were at the flowers before me this morning ... but there was no ripe pollen available either. How did they know?

My camera wouldn't get a proper picture in that early light and the flash ruined the pic ... there was no pollen formed
on WL's anthers early this morning. Three hours later it's starting to fluff nicely. I removed two anthers from WL and they had enough pollen to cross with several other flowers (Montana Aureomarginata, Lakeside Cha Cha, Niagra Falls Seedling, Gold Standard, September Sun, Blue seedling)
I'm going to save the rest from him today) He had five flowers to open today. The last scape is just starting to form flowers.

The first cross WL X SP took. The pod is forming.
the NFS is further ahead than WL on the same crosses with MA. They're both forming pods but NFS is larger.

Curtis/m2m

First Cross WL X SP
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NFS X MA Pod Forming
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WL X MA Pod Forming
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William Lachman Leaf
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William Lachman
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DBoweMD
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Post by DBoweMD »

I'm loving reading about your progress and daily update!

When you talk about saving the WL pollen, to use on something like Sun Power, you have to consider WL as if it were solid green. Think of how you will affect the appearance of Sun Power by introducing the leaf shape, shade of green color, substance, flower color, size, blooming period, growth habit, scape height, fertility... so many variables! But not streakiness, it generally won't come from the pollen.

Most people don't bother saving the pollen of the streaked plant because it doesn't inspire much as an improvement on something like Sun Power.

When you save pollen you are trying to introduce something very different to an existing genetic makeup, into plants with different flowering periods.

I would save pollen from red petiole plants, bright gold plants, heavy substance plants, very rugose plants, fragrant plants, extremely blue plants, very large plants, very small plants, wavy edged ones, wierd shape leaf ones, very upright ones....

You also want to decide over time which of your plants are effective as pollen donors, as saving an impotent donor pollen like gold standard is futile. It takes a lot of time to pollinate and label a flower (only to have it fail :( ), and you only have so many hours in a morning to get the deed done.

Take Sun Power and decide how it could be changed into something distinctive... Add red petioles; a tight wavy edge, make it a mini with the same shape and color. Make it more upright... Get those bright gold leaves to cup or dome...

Take Kabitan, and cross it with something with good substance to get the bright color, but slug proof it. I get excited about this stuff, can you tell???
marriedtomud
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Post by marriedtomud »

Dave ....
You made me happy to hear that you're enjoying this
learning process for me. I get quite a few private emails asking me questions (and giving kudos) .... sometimes I can answer them from what I've learned or ask them myself in another post.
I've been doing just exactly what you're saying for a long time .... planning crosses for specific traits. How many times I've said I'd love to have a smalller vetrsion of a certain Hosta. Part of this is with the idea that I may accomplish some of those wishes.

I used Golden Tiara the second day because of her specific traits of good vigor and small size. I've recorded and photographed the bud times of almost every Hosta here.
There are quite a few that I've not mentioned yet that are
getting crossed as the same time as Lachman.

Speaking of Lachman .... I've heard a lot of people that use this one specifically for breeding but he's one of my favorite performers here. He has excellent shape and leaf quality,
a beautiful blue green color and the streaking isn't so strong as to be garish. I like Rosie Posie and Misty Gold as specimens also.

I have specific traits from certain Hostas that I'd like to work on in future for attaching to a seedling once I have a
few forms that I like. Like the red scapes or dark blooms
or small size or fragrance .... and definately substance. Thats a very important quality for me.

Thanks again for all your excellent advice ... to all that have
helped.

Curtis/m2m

Oh ... quick question ... I saved pollen from three today only to find that it had pretty much dried out even stored in
a vacume sealed container. How long at room temps is
pollen viable?
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DBoweMD
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Post by DBoweMD »

I don't know how long it is viable!
I am going to try drying my pollen before storing now, after reading suggestions from everyone.
It would take some good organization but should not be too hard to do the experiment, using the same pollen fresh and dried for varying number of days, on a known easy/reliable cross.
I am part of the hosta hybridizers group that meets in Ann Arbor a few times a year... joined last fall. Chris was there too for the lecture by Dr. Ben Lockhart. These are the kind of questions that we (not me yet) work on, doing group research projects. They publish results in a journal when the results are analyzed.
marriedtomud
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Post by marriedtomud »

Even as the realm of crosses expands it's beginning to be a lot easier to get the crosses done. The longest part is still the daily search for good fluffy pollen. A few more were added to the growing list of crossings ... Ventricosa, my blue seedling, Alligator Shoes and amazingly to me my tiny
start of Guardian Angel sent up a scape and made a flower
with great pollen. How you gonna refuse that?
Honestly I didn't think he would be able to flower. The flower was almost as big as his leaf. I used his pollen on several ... thats why the field enlarged. I look at GA and think he's pretty near perfect but then I consider things like fragrance or longer bloom or a colorful flower. A miniature Guardian Angel or one that matures quickly ... I guess thats why we try.

While checking for Hostas that are forming their first buds
(for more crosses) I was amazed to find that Elvis Lives had sent up new scapes. His first scape just finished and
now two smaller eyes are making scapes.

Those making new scapes this week are Misty Gold, Fragrant Blue, Maraschino Cherry, Red October, a mini streaker from WL, and Red Dragon.

Striptease is one that I'm anxious for a bloom. Lots of features with him that would be worth utilizing.

Curtis/m2m

WL x Guardian Angel
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WL X Alligator Shoes
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Guardian Angel ... thats the whole plant behind the flower ... honestly
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Queen of the Seas ... finished blooming ... making pods
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Maraschino Cherry ... beautiful scapes
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Ventricosa ... started today
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Fragrant Blue ... making buds
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Bullseye ... a streaked WL mini
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Help checking the crosses
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marriedtomud
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Post by marriedtomud »

The crosses are piling up. Lachman had five scapes with open flowers and another that is about to start. The actual crossing time is minimal. Its the record keeping that's
tedious. When the hanging tags arrive that should help a lot.

The rainy day crosses are falling off. Elvis Lives and the Golden Tiara crosses done on Monday and followed by a rain didn't take. It took four days for the flowers to fall off.

A few good candidates opened today ... Whirlwind,
Breeders Choice, Fragrant Blue & Kabitan all opened their
first flowers today. Seventh Heaven & Tenryu are about to
open. Striptease, Loyalist, Touch of Class, Halycon & PUDC are making scapes now. Nothing from Plantagenia or Thunderbolt yet.

Anyone try storing pollen in a humidor? I've had no luck storing it for short term in either the fridge or in an air tight container.

Anyone have recomendations for a good gold streaked Hosta?

Curtis/m2m

Lachman crosses ... second scape
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Whirlwind ... first bud
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Kabitan making a scape
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Very fragrant 'Fragrant Blue'
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GE Pods ... maybe something good in there
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marriedtomud
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Post by marriedtomud »

The crosses keep increasng. Lachman had eleven buds ... Breeders Choice two.
Lots of others getting deliberately pollinated ... Lakeside Cha Cha, Montana A, Fragrant Blue, Christmas Tree, Niagra Falls Seedling, Faithful Heart, Alligator Shoes, Whirlwind, August Moon, Halycon ... even Krossa got a cross. Guardian Angel had another bud and got a cross with Yellow Splash Rim. YSR won out because he had the best pollen.
New buds forming on Red Dragon, Misty Gold, Bullseye, Kabitan, Loyalist, Revolution, & Tenryu ... thats's why the list keeps expanding. It becomes very easy to see why having individual eyes of the ones you want to cross in pots is so much easier. It's a good thing I'm flexible because the contortionist act to get to the flowers and get them marked is pretty extreme.

Tenryu had an odd scape form ... I thought of Mike's post about the triple pod that formed. Tenryu has a scape that's two scapes from a single eye that are fused together. Makes me wonder what the buds are going to look like.

Pods are forming from the earliest rainy day cross.
Lachman took with the emergency cross with Golden Tiara
and a bud about 1/2 inch long has formed. The Niagra Falls Seedling has made a bud for every day since opening.
He lost one that broke off but all the rest have taken.

Need to start a journal ... and I need the tags to get here.
I'll be needing to order more by the time the first lot arrive.

Curtis/m2m

Kabitan scape ... love this Hosta
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Loyalist buds
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Tenryu mutated scape
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Getting Crowded on this scape
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GE Pods
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marriedtomud
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Post by marriedtomud »

A lot of the decisions for crosses are made spur of the moment. Maraschino Cherry and Whirlwind were the mainstay of the planned crosses but neither had open flowers ... enter Halycon & Guardian Angel.

Halycon & Guardian Angel each had one flower this morning ... both with excellent fluffy pollen so they supplied pollen for the majority of the crosses. Elvis Lives new scape (which seemed like only a day ago had come up) opened two new flowers. The thought for the cross (EL X Halycon) was to get an EL form with Halycon coloring.

Lakeside Cha Cha made decent pollen for the first time in a while. Some flowers are open at dawn with excellent fluffy
pollen .... he's not one like that ... but this morning he had
early pollen and got a cross with Guardian Angel and several others.

There's a single eye of a blue seedling that's nearby to where the majority of the crosses are being done. Though he didn't figure in the big scheme of this hybridizing project he has come to play a backup role. Whenever I have leftover pollen from a planned cross he gets a cross also.
After ten days he's gotten a pretty impressive list of crosses. LOL ... thats more seeds that'll have to be harvested, planted, and watched.

Loyalist and fragrant Royal Standard are making scapes.
As did Lancifolia ... and this one is fertile. Still waiting on Plantagenia.

Curtis/m2m
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DBoweMD
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Post by DBoweMD »

You have it down!
I'm also waiting for that Plantaginea pollen. It is hard to get it to take on most plants, but it will work sometimes and you'll get fragrant offspring with big flowers.
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dmi188
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Post by dmi188 »

You are doing a great deal more than I am. I have 5 plants inside that I am keeping close records on. The ones outside I seldom get to before the bees!

I have great pod production on my Diane Gray Dalton outside. I cannot seem to get Seventh Heaven to set seed...and it is so fragrant!
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renaldo75
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Post by renaldo75 »

I don't remember where I heard/read this, but I recall someone saying that to get plantagenia & some of the other fragrant ones to take pollen, then it helps to very lightly apply pollen from the same flower around the very edges & then a very large amount of the pollen you are crossing with it in the center.
GO HAWKEYES!!!

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dmi188
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Post by dmi188 »

I forgot that, renaldo. Someone did say that last year.
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renaldo75
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Post by renaldo75 »

My mind used to be filled with useless music & movie trivia [and still is] :wink: LOL - but now it's filled with useful hosta trivia too. :lol:
GO HAWKEYES!!!

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marriedtomud
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Post by marriedtomud »

Hey guys

Denise ... you have some excellent seedlings. Pics of good
babies makes me want to redouble my efforts.

Renaldo ... Thanks for the Plantagenia advice. If I remember correctly they bloomed in August and I got pods from them last year ... just before freezing.

Dave ... your babies are excellent. Thanks for posting a few pics. Makes this seem a bit more realistic.

It's kinda amazing the way you view the Hostas and flowers
changes up when you start hybridizing. The little details that you never considered before become more important.
Like .... Maraschino Cherry pollen not ripening til almost noon. Or how certain plants will cross with everything and
others will only take certain crosses. How little pollen Alligator Shoes makes. No mattter what you have planned
the crosses are subject to conditions that you can hardly control.

The crossed markings keep piling up and now William Lachman is nearing the end of his flower cycle. The late scape has more buds but they will mostly be finished by this weekend. Seems like a lot longer looking back but it's only been two weeks. A late check tonite and most of the
Lachman crosses are making pods. Lost a few of the rainy day crosses but about 75-80& are making pods. The Niagra Falls seedling made a pod for every cross ... didn't miss or lose a single bud. Fragrant Blue took on all his
crosses so far also. Montana Aureomarginata finished up today but I saved a few anthers of pollen for the later opening crosses. Maybe a Plantagenia.

A few promising buds for tomorrow ... Misty Gold has three about to open ... Salute and Red Dragon are forming.

Curtis/m2m

And the hanging tags arrived!

Red Dragon
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Fragrant Blue floweres
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Loyalist X Montana Aureomarginata
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Misty Gold buds
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