Hybridizing mystery mind probe

[addieotto]

I'm just curious. For those of you who hybridize, how do you decide what you are going to work towards? Are you most influenced by your own personal likes or dislikes? Do you take into consideration whether or not you think your desired hosta might be a star in the rest of the world or what the hot quality of the moment is?

When I look at photos of amazing seedlings, I see the work of artists. Like traditional artists, some appear to be chasing a mythical image in the artist's mind, others appear to be chasing something else.

I plan on doing my own hybridizing this year (for the first time) and I'm sure what I will be working towards will change and ebb and flow. I'm thinking it will be influenced by the work of others. So I guess, although the primary motivation for all appears to be the sheer enjoyment of growing, I'm just curious how others see their seedling efforts.

Or.. if you haven't hybridized yet but think you want to, have you thought about why you want to do it?

Hope the question isn't too ridiculous. Welcome your thoughts,

[Wanda]

Not ridiculous at all! I haven’t done any hybridizing yet, but am hoping to start this year. I won’t be using streakers...I am going for specific forms and leaf shapes first.

I want to create a giant blue Atom Smasher-type hosta...really big and really blue. I need that specific size/shape/color in my gardens, but haven’t found anything available. Ron probably already has one like that (hehe) but I haven’t heard anything, so I will give it a go. Sort of like a great big blue waterfall and whitewater - if I can get white backs on the leaves, too. I am going to start by trying to cross Atom Smasher and two AS seedlings with my huge streaked Blue Angel and see what happens. Will probably also try to work in Elvis Lives and Venetian Blue.

And also want to try for huge solid blue and solid yellow Jade Cascade-type hosta...about 3 times as big as JC...just love that form.

Aside from that I would like to make BIG hosta - most gardens don’t have room for them, but I need them. We have huge old trees with trunks 8-11’+ around...need really big hosta to even be noticeable in the larger landscape. And truly, we all need at least one 6’ tall hosta, don’t we? (hehe)

wanda

[thehostagourmet]

Wanda, you might examine Olga Petryszyn's work.

George

[Justaysam]

I just wanted to produce a hosta with the traits I like, I don't play bumble bee for anyone but myself. I like when others like my seedlings, but I like it more when I like them. I was going for a blue/green leaf with yellow/gold streaking, nice waxy bloom, with wavy leaves. This year I got it, and now don't know if I will be as interested in the seedling bit as I have been in the past. I think it is pretty cool when people try and improve hostas with neat, out of the ordinary flowers, but I don't have the patience for that. It takes a few more years, and a lot of space, which I don't have. I guess my wants could change, I do like long, strap like leaves and also red pets, so I may have something to shoot for in years to come.
I like the way your worded your question, and am sure you will get some very interesting responses. I will be checking back to read them all. I hope everyone who does do their own pollenating will give you an honest answer, it will make good reading!

[eastwood2007]

I like your question, too. I hope to do some hybridizing for the first time this year. I purchased some seeds this winter, and it was great fun growing seedlings. I don't have a real plan as I don't yet know what produces what, but I am getting ready to start studying...anyone have a good suggestion for study material on hosta hybridizing?

Wanda, I like your idea about the big blue Atom Smasher. I can actually picture it from your description. Keep us posted on your progress on that!

[scootersbear]

First I don't beleive hybrizing ends with just making the cross and then planting the seeds. It's a long process which can take 5 years or more. The hostas have to reach maturity to know exactly what you have.
As far as streaked hostas theres only 4 of them anyways small, medium, large, and extra large, sorry Rod. I've only kept 1 streaked seedling and that came from a Unnamed Chastain streaked hosta and either Dorset Clown or L. Rocky Top, don't know because my now 7 yr old in a week decided to help me pick seeds when she was just over a year old.
I go for the hard hostas that they say are sterile or hard to hybridize with little success but every now and then, but nothing more than plain jane green so far.
Also I do think in the near future we will have hosta with leafs of red or possibly other colors. So I look for seedlings with a lot of red petiols and cross them with others that are known for there red petiols, getting hirer but not there yet.

[renaldo75]

Hopefully I'll be doing some hybridizing for the 1st time this summer. But unlike Wanda [I don't have unlimited space in an old growth forest], I'm headed in the opposite direction sizewise. I'll be going for Minis & Smalls & trying to get some of the same characteristics into them that are so eye-pleasing in the larger hostas. I've been thinking about individual crosses this winter. Eventually I may have some streaked hostas to work with, but for now I'll be happy with good substance, good growth, & good form. And maybe working some fragrance into those smalls & minis too. Time will tell.

[playinmud]

I found out about hybridizing too late last year to do anything special...I toyed around with it, but really let the bees do their thing. I was shocked that I did end up with a lot of seed pods. It was so cool, I'll definitely be more observant this year.

There are way too many crosses to remember, so I plan on using little paper jeweler's tags on strings and a log book of some type (suggestions?). But deciding on a pod parent, and then a pollen parent just based on my hosta list may not work out. They might not be blooming at the same time. This year the early blooming pod parent will have to be crossed with whatever is blooming. I'll also start collecting pollen early in the season for the later blooming plants that I want to cross, as well as later blooming plants' pollen to cross with the early bloomers next season. So I've got to figure out how to preserve pollen (suggestions?), I've heard of freezing it.

When I figure out when each plant blooms I'll be capturing that information in my hosta database that I keep on my plants. I'll also look at the traits that I like...piecrusting, cupped, cascading lance leaf form, shiny, yellow, blue, streaked...whatever. This way I'll be able to make intelligent decisions.

[addieotto]

I really appreciate the answers so far! Thanks to those who didn't think the question was too nuts. The reason I came up with it to begin with was ::: as I am thinking about what my goals are and they seem to be different from the "popular" trends. When I say this, I must confess that red petioles don't ignite my heart like lush texture and unique form. I can appreciate them theoretically but it doesn't suck the breath out of my lungs. I was wondering how others thought about this kind of thing. I learned a bit about that (how people thought about their own work) at Hosta College.

I love what Wanda and Justaysam had to say, especially about the bumblebee impersonation. I was intrigued that George poked his head in for a comment but did not elaborate on his own efforts. And I know he has efforts because I took his hybridizing class... and he didn't have time to show his own work.

Scootersbear, you are right. It's a long haul. I look at leafmould's seedlings and I see years in the dungeon. And you are touching my interests with the "hard to breed"... Now that's a real challenge to wrestle with.

There are hosta in my mind and I hope to pull them out someday. Hybridizing hosta reminds me of a teacher I had (and wound up admiring incredibly) who spent his entire career (lifetime) as an artist painting self portraits. Although he was working with only one picture, himself, he worked for years on imprinting new perspectives on his basic canvas. He was also the person to confront me, asking me what I didn't like about painting. When I answered "brushes" in my snotty punk rock attitude, he snapped back "paint without brushes". He made me finish the entire year without using brushes ((in painting class)). He forced me out of the box. And years later I see hybridizing hosta like painting without brushes.

Ok, enough being dorky. I swear this is not the vodka talking....! Please consider adding more opinions. I really appreciate the perspectives.

[wzbt03]

I think the most important thing is to breed for something you like.
It really does not matter what anyone else wants to see but what you see when you look at two separate plants and decide to see what happens when they become one.

I have a number of very expensive and nice hostas in pots growing in my greenhouse right now along with many of my seedlings. My wife wanted to replace a section of a garden with a hosta and I gave her the choice to pick among the 100's of hosta in pots. Some were going to be huge and many are some of the newest of cultivars but when she picked the streaked one that was one of my seedlings over all of them without even knowing it was a seedling, that is what we are trying to do.

You don't need to have the next great hosta, just having one that someone will say "That one is nice" makes it all worthwhile.

That is my 2 cents and you will find most of the really great hybridizers are always happy to share what they know and what they are doing. Just listen, learn and then do what your own heart tells you.

[DBoweMD]

My hybridizing has gone through stages, and I have found what I like about it over time. I think this is my fourth winter growing seedlings.
The first year I wanted to prove I could grow seedlings and tried what seemed right, cheap and easy on my own. This was the summer I met Mark Zilis at Peter Ruh's place. I wanted to be sure that if I went to all the trouble of making crosses that it wouldn't be wasted. I didn't have a very large collection at that time, but I think I made a good number of intentional crosses. I got a lot of seedlings that grew adequately.
The next summer I started making lots of crosses, pretty much any two hostas that were flowering at the same time in my garden got crossed. I met Bob Kuk and he described his methods and how he was mostly interested in new leaf forms. This didn't make sense to me because I mostly had immature plants that didn't really look all that different to me. However, I learned that it made sense to mix up the gene pool and cross things that were not similar. I added new hostas to my collection with more focus on good breeding potential. From these, the second seedling growing year I paid close attention to Mr Leafmould's instructions, started growing earlier, and planted a lot more seeds. I got more lights and did 24/7 and built watering trays lined with plastic sheeting, used frertilizer and used cups to transplant. The growth was phenomenally better. I did not have any streakers to use seeds from.
Next summer I started looking a little more at goals, but there were too many. Red petioles on yellow plants is a good one, and fragrance mixed with anything also good. To my surprise, I was getting neat looking plants from the early random crosses. I find it is really gratifying to be surprised at what you get. It's a little frustating when you don't get what you were planning for.
Third season I got streaked seeds from people on the seed exchange (Kathy S) because the ones for sale are so expensive and all you really need is the streaking and fertility if you are going to breed with good traits. Growing was again very good, and I got maybe a dozen streaked seedlings to grow well, not enough to hybridize with.
In the summer the oldest seedlings started to get even better, enough that I entered 15 at First Look, brought 30 but couldn't enter them all. (those not entered were mostly single divisions, not qualifying.) I got a lot of red and yellow ribbons and a blue.
I have shown some of my seedlings to Peter Ruh, Mark Zilis, and Bill Zumber and gotten great positive feedback.
These are all single color hostas. I think this year will see a shift into more crosses onto streaked plants, to try to get the cool leaf shapes to have multiple color variegation.
My strongest goal right now is to get more fertile fragrant hostas. Most of my fragrant ones are not fertile pod parents.
Thanks for asking this question!

[renaldo75]

Thanks for giving me a good morning chuckle, Sue!!

I can appreciate them theoretically but it doesn't suck the breath out of my lungs.

I'm still !!

One other thought I had while reading the later posts is that I think my thinking on hybridizing was altered/shaped by a comment Olga Petracsyn made when giving a presentation to the ROHS group once. She was showing slides of her individual hostas. Then showed a wide shot of a garden and asked what we noticed about it. There were wonderful plant forms & sizes, textures, leaf shapes & sizes, & colors. And the most interesting thing was that out of the 2 dozen or more hostas in that photo there were only 2 or 3 that were variegated. 90% solid colored - golds, greens, blues - and it was one of the most interesting gardens I'd seen. That was an eye-opener. So I began looking & collecting more greens for their form, color differences, leaf shapes, etc. For me, there are so many possibilities before you even introduce variegation.

[eastwood2007]

Great thread, everyone, and wonderful ideas/info. Keep it coming! This newbie is listening!

[Linda P]

"I can appreciate them theoretically but it doesn't suck the breath out of my lungs."
I'm still chuckling about that one, too.
I have had hostas that suck the breath out of my lungs, and some of them have bright red petioles. However, just because it has red in it, it doesn't automatically knock me out.
One hosta that made me stop breathing the first time I saw it was Marilyn Monroe, so you can see where I might go if I started to do some hybridizing.
I've not done any yet, just grown OP seeds from my garden. The ones I choose to grow are generally large, piecrusted, frosty solid colors, white backs are a plus. I have a really great bunch of seedlings from a streaked Lime Piecrust, none of them streaked, but the colors I got from that grex remind me of a jewel box. I love looking at them all together, but it's not the best plant to use in hybridzing because the growth rate seems to be somewhere between slow and slower.
If I were going to hybridize, I'd be putting faster growth rate on the thick-textured, wavy-edged plants, and also dark, fragrant flowers. Stature is important; strong petioles are necessary on my windy hilltop.
Giving a nod to Wanda's preference, I'm also very intrigued by the narrow, highly wavy leaves. I'll be first in line for that giant blue Atom Smasher hybrid! Go, Wanda!!!!
Linda P

[Justaysam]

Great responses everyone! I, for one, would like to see something like this in the Hosta Journal. Just little snippets of what hybridizers interests are, along with their experiences, kind of like Daves comments. I'm not a hybridizer, just a gardener with a little mad science mixed in, to see what would happen if, but love to here what all you serious people are shooting for. Thanks.

[thehostagourmet]

Sue, my earlier comment to Wanda was just to point out that Olga Petryszyn seemed to have most of Wanda's potential hybridizing goals well in hand. Not to say that two people couldn't have the same hybridizing goals, of course.

The outline I gave out in class at Hosta College started out with hybridizing goals, and I did try to cover the topic during the class. Size, color, fragrance are hosta characteristics that can provide hybridizing goals. Olga specializes in large hostas, while Kent Terpening specializes in wavy/pie crust edged hostas. I don't mean to imply that this is the only hybridizing goal of either person, but is for at least one or more hybridizing "line" of each. Red-petioled yellow hostas seems to be a goal for Arthur Wrede who hybridized 'Designer Genes', the Philly convention plant. I also am partial to red-petioled yellow hostas, but appreciate green hostas with red petioles too.

By the way, the bees are resposible for 'Marilyn Monroe', I think. Imagine, now, a bright yellow 'Marilyn Monroe'! Appropriate, don't you think, for one of Hollywood's most famous blonds.

My goals have changed, since I first started making crosses in 2000. I no longer work toward a better, fragrant hosta, though I love the aroma of H. plantaginea. A yellow margin that stays truly yellow on a green or blue leaf would be a nice achievement. Small to medium sized hostas that are as eye-catching as Olga's really big ones are what I seek. Most people don't have the room for 20 or 30 'Sum and Substance' or 'Blue Angel'-sized plants. Add yellow or blue and wavy margins to the mix, stir vigorously and see what you get. Leafy-like stunning flowers would be a nice bonus.

George

[Wanda]

Thanks for the info, George. Now tell me everything you know about Olga Petryszyn and her hosta, please? I have vaguely heard of her and seen pic of a few of her plants...but I live in the northwoods of Michigan and don’t get out much (hehe).

I really wish I knew more of that sort of info...who is already doing what. That way we could try to all work at different things to create more “different” hosta...rather than most of us working toward red stems or the like.

One more major goal of mine is to create totally frost-proof hosta. I would appreciate some input on how to do this. After all the freeze damage already this year, I know we all need more cold-tolerant hosta!

wanda

[renaldo75]

Wanda - many of Olga's are part of her 'Americana' series: Niagara Falls, Manhattan, Old Faithful, Dawn's Early Light, Mississippi Delta, Blue Hawaii, Grand Canyon, etc. I can't think of all of them, but there are quite a few more than what I've named. I think Key West is one of the newer ones. There are others not in the 'Americana' series. Brother Stefan is one of the few variegated hostas she's introduced.

Go to the Hosta Libray & use Hugo's Database. Select the hybridizer option under search & then type in Olga's name. [I always have to look up how it's spelled for sure.] It'll bring up a list of all her hostas & then you can surf the library's pics to see what she's been hybridizing. You'll like em - cuz they're all BIG & take up lots of real estate.

[DBoweMD]

Frost resistance is great idea. The only approach I could think of that will definitely work is to breed for late emergence. I have an all green sport of On Stage, and noted that it emerged late, just like On Stage, but looks like any other Montana. It didn't flower but I will use it when it does.

[eastwood2007]

My Stiletto was virtually untouched by the freeze we had here, and nearly everything else is mush, I mean real mush! A few had some leaves that made it, but Stiletto only had two leaves that had slight damage around the edges. It was also the first one up, and was fully leafed out when the freeze hit. I also noticed before it started to leaf out that it really needed to be planted more deeply, so it even had crowns too high and a few roots visible at the surface. I was really worried about it when the freeze hit. I had always like it, but now I really have alot of respect for it!