Breed banning-right or wrong
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- Old earth dog
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Breed banning-right or wrong
First off
Tami, I have a number of friends that are cat people. I won't hold that against you. In fact, I admire your acknowledging you limits about being able to control active/large/aggressive/etc breeds of dogs. More people should do that.
Pat, I totally understand your feelings. I wish I had the right answer. Nobody really does.
Janet, well said. In particular about dogs having shown previous signs of aggresion. The attacks we see and read about on the paper DO NOT HAPPEN OUT OF THE BLUE!!It's people's inability to read their dogs, OR a refusal to believe what they see as being a danger signal. "OH MY, I just didn't think my baby would do that".
I'd like to talk a little about the Pitbull as a breed. I HATE DOGFIGHTING PERIOD!! However, the old time dogfighters bred for a quality called gameness. It had NOTHING to do with aggression. It was the ability/desire to continue the fight even though the individual was getting it's butt whipped. When my dad was a kid in the teens and 20s, many people had and fought pitbulls. They were very popular then. AKA The little Raskels dog Pete. The people that fought these dogs had to be in the ring with the dogs. Dogs that were "man aggressive" were very much frowned on, and other owners often refused a "match" if the other guy had "Man biters". True game bred dogs are very soft/passive dogs around people. Gameness has NOTHING TO DO WITH AGGRESSION.
Enter the late 70s, early 80. Gangbangers began controling the drug trade. "Pit bulls are tough dogs." "We can make lots of money fighting them, and we can make guard dogs out of them". The idiots that stuck to fighting them know about gameness. The other idiots though a mean dog is a better guard dog. (The beginning of the end) "Lets breed Bubba's nasty tempered dog to Lamont's bada$$ dog". The up and comming kids in the hood see these people making lots of bucks with thes bada$$ dogs and they look soooo kooool. Now everybody starts cranking out Pits in their back yards. ANY breed subject to this total lack of quality control will start producing dog with both health and temperment problems. I mow the 30 or so acres of common ground in my village. I can count DOZENS of pits in backyards when I mow. The breed numbers have exploded in the past 20+yrs. There are to many people that have these dogs for the wrong reason. Should we get rid of the breed? Then we need to get rid of booze. HMMMMM seems we tried that. It only created more problems. Well, lets get rid of fast, powerful cars. Lots of people get killed by fast cars. OK, how about guns. Everyone knows guns kill thousands every year, even though most of the people I know have grown up with guns all their lives, it must be guns that are creating the problems. SMOKING, hell, even the tobacco industry admits those things are harmful.
Where do we go folks? Is it the dog or the dogs idoit owner? Is it the fast car, or the idioit who drive it carelessly? Is it the gun, or the idioit, irresponsable owner that has no idea what gun safty means? Is it the cigarette or the person that chooses to put it in their mouth? Ok if you don't inhale though .
It's all about the right to choose. Unfortunately, many people don't choose wisely or responsably, be it dogs, cars, guns, drugs, yadda, yadda, yadda! Human nature being what it is, this will never change.
I don't think banning a particular breed will accomplish a thing. We have dog laws now. We have speed laws now. We have gun laws now. We have drinking laws now. We have smoking laws now.
I personally think more people should be spayed and nutted.
Tami, I have a number of friends that are cat people. I won't hold that against you. In fact, I admire your acknowledging you limits about being able to control active/large/aggressive/etc breeds of dogs. More people should do that.
Pat, I totally understand your feelings. I wish I had the right answer. Nobody really does.
Janet, well said. In particular about dogs having shown previous signs of aggresion. The attacks we see and read about on the paper DO NOT HAPPEN OUT OF THE BLUE!!It's people's inability to read their dogs, OR a refusal to believe what they see as being a danger signal. "OH MY, I just didn't think my baby would do that".
I'd like to talk a little about the Pitbull as a breed. I HATE DOGFIGHTING PERIOD!! However, the old time dogfighters bred for a quality called gameness. It had NOTHING to do with aggression. It was the ability/desire to continue the fight even though the individual was getting it's butt whipped. When my dad was a kid in the teens and 20s, many people had and fought pitbulls. They were very popular then. AKA The little Raskels dog Pete. The people that fought these dogs had to be in the ring with the dogs. Dogs that were "man aggressive" were very much frowned on, and other owners often refused a "match" if the other guy had "Man biters". True game bred dogs are very soft/passive dogs around people. Gameness has NOTHING TO DO WITH AGGRESSION.
Enter the late 70s, early 80. Gangbangers began controling the drug trade. "Pit bulls are tough dogs." "We can make lots of money fighting them, and we can make guard dogs out of them". The idiots that stuck to fighting them know about gameness. The other idiots though a mean dog is a better guard dog. (The beginning of the end) "Lets breed Bubba's nasty tempered dog to Lamont's bada$$ dog". The up and comming kids in the hood see these people making lots of bucks with thes bada$$ dogs and they look soooo kooool. Now everybody starts cranking out Pits in their back yards. ANY breed subject to this total lack of quality control will start producing dog with both health and temperment problems. I mow the 30 or so acres of common ground in my village. I can count DOZENS of pits in backyards when I mow. The breed numbers have exploded in the past 20+yrs. There are to many people that have these dogs for the wrong reason. Should we get rid of the breed? Then we need to get rid of booze. HMMMMM seems we tried that. It only created more problems. Well, lets get rid of fast, powerful cars. Lots of people get killed by fast cars. OK, how about guns. Everyone knows guns kill thousands every year, even though most of the people I know have grown up with guns all their lives, it must be guns that are creating the problems. SMOKING, hell, even the tobacco industry admits those things are harmful.
Where do we go folks? Is it the dog or the dogs idoit owner? Is it the fast car, or the idioit who drive it carelessly? Is it the gun, or the idioit, irresponsable owner that has no idea what gun safty means? Is it the cigarette or the person that chooses to put it in their mouth? Ok if you don't inhale though .
It's all about the right to choose. Unfortunately, many people don't choose wisely or responsably, be it dogs, cars, guns, drugs, yadda, yadda, yadda! Human nature being what it is, this will never change.
I don't think banning a particular breed will accomplish a thing. We have dog laws now. We have speed laws now. We have gun laws now. We have drinking laws now. We have smoking laws now.
I personally think more people should be spayed and nutted.
- Old earth dog
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- impatience
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Well, all I can add to the conversation is that, as a letter carrier, I could stand to see a few breeds done away with. A pit bull got a carrier I used to work with last week. I know it isn't always the dog...it's how they are raised...but doggoneit...all the pits and rots around here are pure evil.
I'm totally with OED on this one... We have a family down the street with (I think) 5 dogs. They are either pit bulls or crossbred pits. Their back yard is visible from mine and while I was out working in it a few weeks ago, I heard a lot of growling and yelling and looked up. They were trying to encourage these so called family dogs to fight! And as I watched, one was always getting whomped on. Finally I couldn't stand it any more and I went and stood at the fence and hollered at them to either stop it or I was calling the cops. They broke it up and I made a few phone calls to the locals in charge and haven't seen it happen since. It just made me sick! They don't fight these dogs....they are sposed to be pets! It was just a 'we're bored' kinda thing evidently.......sighhhhhhh
mooie
mooie
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Our local Sheriff's department and Animal Control recently raided a pitbull training center in a rural part of the parish. Between 30-40 dogs were euthanized on the spot because they were so vicious they couldn't even be approached...and many were covered with gaping wounds and horrible scars from fighting. Maybe 20 more were taken to the pound but later euthanized.
The pitbull training facility had treadmills, pits for fighting, steroids, etc.
I'm personally terrified of pitbulls, I've known three different people who were viciously attacked and one woman's little dachshund (on leash) was literally torn to pieces in front of her eyes. Pitbulls are unpredictable and have a manner of biting that is unique to dogs.
I don't disagree that the breed in general has been victimized by society but when one breed surfaces time and time again when you hear of vicious attacks, something serious needs to be done. We've had this same discussion going at PugVillage and someone made the point that if/when pitbulls are banned, the people who pride themselves on their "protection" dogs and/or their fighting dogs will simply try to create the same traits in other breeds. That's probably true but pitbulls have some unique fighting and biting traits that are their's alone.
Ann
The pitbull training facility had treadmills, pits for fighting, steroids, etc.
I'm personally terrified of pitbulls, I've known three different people who were viciously attacked and one woman's little dachshund (on leash) was literally torn to pieces in front of her eyes. Pitbulls are unpredictable and have a manner of biting that is unique to dogs.
I don't disagree that the breed in general has been victimized by society but when one breed surfaces time and time again when you hear of vicious attacks, something serious needs to be done. We've had this same discussion going at PugVillage and someone made the point that if/when pitbulls are banned, the people who pride themselves on their "protection" dogs and/or their fighting dogs will simply try to create the same traits in other breeds. That's probably true but pitbulls have some unique fighting and biting traits that are their's alone.
Ann
To plant a garden is to believe in tomorrow.
- Old earth dog
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Sorry for the rant. We've had two PB deaths here in the past month so I completely understand the feelings of those that may disagree with me. It still boils down to irresponsible owners and breeders. Both my brother and my daughter own PBs. I trust both of those dogs. One with the lives of my gkids. As was mentioned in my rant, It doesn't just happen. Good laws concerning vicious dogs, regardless of breed, are what's needed. Unfortunately, even these laws aren't thought out well enough to be really effective. It's rare that knowledgeable dog people are involved in the decision making. Usually just political figures trying to make a name for themselves. I wish I had the answer.
Sometimes we all need to do a little venting, and this one was a good one! If we could get the laws on the books enforced, things would improve.
Two of my favorite laws I've seen passed in different places:
Tag fees, cheap if altered. Almost tripled it not.
No more than 3 dogs, unless a registered breeder. (This one is a big city law)
Something else I've seen and wish there was more of.
Free/low price medical support for low income owners. There are many low or fixed income people who could afford the basic needs, and give the animals a good home. However a medical check up, shots and altering can cost several hundred dollars. I've seen several groups that help with the this, and it appears to work.
Then there is the one thing that is working, but don't know for how long they can do it. The Ridgeback folk and been working their rears off for years, keeping their breed under control. As the breed has started showing signs of being more popular, the less desirable owners have increased. To counteract it, the game plan has been intense!
Some folks go under cover to the auctions, buy the pups to take them out of circulation. Have them altered, then adopted.
Mills and dealt with as strongly as possible.
People who have one, and can't keep it any longer is absorbed by breed rescue and adopted out.
The breeders (the good ones) are VERY picky about who buys their dogs. As one put it, you would rather go through and IRS audit.
Most of all they educate people! Even if you only have a mix.
It's too late for some of the breeds, others have closed their ranks as much as possible.
For those of you who are not familiar with Rhodesian Ridgebacks. They are a large loving indoor dog. Who are very strong willed, intelligent, and protective. A combination that can be great in the right hands, and dangerous if not.
Two of my favorite laws I've seen passed in different places:
Tag fees, cheap if altered. Almost tripled it not.
No more than 3 dogs, unless a registered breeder. (This one is a big city law)
Something else I've seen and wish there was more of.
Free/low price medical support for low income owners. There are many low or fixed income people who could afford the basic needs, and give the animals a good home. However a medical check up, shots and altering can cost several hundred dollars. I've seen several groups that help with the this, and it appears to work.
Then there is the one thing that is working, but don't know for how long they can do it. The Ridgeback folk and been working their rears off for years, keeping their breed under control. As the breed has started showing signs of being more popular, the less desirable owners have increased. To counteract it, the game plan has been intense!
Some folks go under cover to the auctions, buy the pups to take them out of circulation. Have them altered, then adopted.
Mills and dealt with as strongly as possible.
People who have one, and can't keep it any longer is absorbed by breed rescue and adopted out.
The breeders (the good ones) are VERY picky about who buys their dogs. As one put it, you would rather go through and IRS audit.
Most of all they educate people! Even if you only have a mix.
It's too late for some of the breeds, others have closed their ranks as much as possible.
For those of you who are not familiar with Rhodesian Ridgebacks. They are a large loving indoor dog. Who are very strong willed, intelligent, and protective. A combination that can be great in the right hands, and dangerous if not.
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Personally, I think any person who owns or 'keeps' an animal, be it a cat or dog or other animal, and that animal attacks a person or another animal that is in it's own yard or under leash, should be dealt with VERY HARSHLY! I mean, certain jail time with definitely minimum (Like 5 years) behind bars at least.
There are laws about committing a felony, then those committing a felony while using a weapon. In my perfect world, that law would include 'using an animal'.
It's disgusting to me, to read about children, elderly and others as well as other pets being mauled, maimed and killed by any breed (even germans that were trained to attack or abused). There is NO excuse in my world for having an animal and not controlling it's actions. Mine have never had to be 'separated' from other/animals. The day they did, they would out of this world. I have 2 cockers who the vet tried to talk me out of 'after' we got them b/c I was running a childcare with 12 children in my home. To this day (they are now nearly 14 years old), this same vet never fails to say in front of anyone in the office, that these are the best behaved cockers he's ever dealt with his life. BTW, this vet father owned the the clinic till he retired and his son took over and he's now about 55. They were socialized and trained to behave, yes, but....
Life is too short already to deal with worrying about a split-second that a childs life is changed forever b/c of maiming or disfiguring and the resulting scars and surgerys from an animal attack or even a simple bite that tears their face/arms, or other parts! Nothing raises my ire faster than a person saying they control and aggressive animal or get the child out of danger if anything happens. B.S.!
Just my humble opinion, but they should be licensed like loaded guns, and those who aren't responsible, put behind bars.
Okay then ..........must be the day for rants!
There are laws about committing a felony, then those committing a felony while using a weapon. In my perfect world, that law would include 'using an animal'.
It's disgusting to me, to read about children, elderly and others as well as other pets being mauled, maimed and killed by any breed (even germans that were trained to attack or abused). There is NO excuse in my world for having an animal and not controlling it's actions. Mine have never had to be 'separated' from other/animals. The day they did, they would out of this world. I have 2 cockers who the vet tried to talk me out of 'after' we got them b/c I was running a childcare with 12 children in my home. To this day (they are now nearly 14 years old), this same vet never fails to say in front of anyone in the office, that these are the best behaved cockers he's ever dealt with his life. BTW, this vet father owned the the clinic till he retired and his son took over and he's now about 55. They were socialized and trained to behave, yes, but....
Life is too short already to deal with worrying about a split-second that a childs life is changed forever b/c of maiming or disfiguring and the resulting scars and surgerys from an animal attack or even a simple bite that tears their face/arms, or other parts! Nothing raises my ire faster than a person saying they control and aggressive animal or get the child out of danger if anything happens. B.S.!
Just my humble opinion, but they should be licensed like loaded guns, and those who aren't responsible, put behind bars.
Okay then ..........must be the day for rants!
Jane (from the middle of the Mitten state)
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I have been bitten by a dog, but I did not blame the owner or the dog for that matter. I had been around the dog before and he never showed agression, however they had recently moved to a new home and when my DH and I went to visit, I got out of the truck and the dog came running up and jumped at me. I rasied my arm up in front of my face because I really thought he was just going to jump on me, and he bit me instead. I ended up getting 26 stiches in my arm and have nice little scars now to add to the many others The breed of the dog? Dalmation
My great grandmother used to have a Chihuhua that hated my guts. When I would go visit her as a child that dog did everything it could to eat my ankels! It would hide under the couch or chair or bed and bite me. It did not want to share me, I think, and since that day Chihuhua's are not my favorite dog!
I guess my point is every dog has the tendancy to be agressive even if it thinks it is just doing its job, and it is the owners who have to control the animal.
I think there should be prosecution for dog owners who do not care and handle their dogs correctly. Leaving a dog tied or chained up in a yard day in and day out, never giving it any attention or anything will make them mean, owner's who do those type of things should pay the price!
Baliff! Whack his peepee
G
My great grandmother used to have a Chihuhua that hated my guts. When I would go visit her as a child that dog did everything it could to eat my ankels! It would hide under the couch or chair or bed and bite me. It did not want to share me, I think, and since that day Chihuhua's are not my favorite dog!
I guess my point is every dog has the tendancy to be agressive even if it thinks it is just doing its job, and it is the owners who have to control the animal.
I think there should be prosecution for dog owners who do not care and handle their dogs correctly. Leaving a dog tied or chained up in a yard day in and day out, never giving it any attention or anything will make them mean, owner's who do those type of things should pay the price!
Baliff! Whack his peepee
G
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Gilliteen <sp?> I'd say...........
Jane (from the middle of the Mitten state)
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I agree with everything you said, OED, and you have every right to speak passionately about this issue. We need stricter laws and harsher punishments for anyone involved in dog fighting or in the breeding and training a dog for that purpose. Pups are born wanting only to please. If they think being an aggressive killer is what their human wants, that is what they will become. It is a despicable form of animal abuse, and people who engage in it are beneath contempt. If human decency is not a part of them and does not make them respond, then humans who engage in this practice need to feel the wrath of the law in much longer sentences. Education is the long-term goal, but first we need to stop in their tracks these evil people already involved in dog fighting .
Sadly, aggressive traits have over the years been bred into PBs. But we have enough skill to reverse the process and breed it out of them. Destroy the breed? I think not. Bring the hard fist of the law down on those involved in dog fighting? With all due haste.
Thanks, OED. Your post is profoundly significant.
Sadly, aggressive traits have over the years been bred into PBs. But we have enough skill to reverse the process and breed it out of them. Destroy the breed? I think not. Bring the hard fist of the law down on those involved in dog fighting? With all due haste.
Thanks, OED. Your post is profoundly significant.
Just like people, dogs/cats/etc. are born with certain temperments. It is how they are socialized, and those temperments delt with that can make or break an animal.
A co-worker who lives in the country is on her third Rottie. She loves those dogs. But, she has stated that there is "something" different about her current rottie. The first two were wonderful, loving, gentle dogs who played wonderfully with her growing children. But the current dog she doesn't quite trust, nothing she can exactly put her finger on, but she is careful about him in a way she didn't have to be about her previous rotties.
My Grandmother had a Samoid (?), white, long haired, looks like a big spitz. HATED that dog when I was a kid. Just knew she would eat me if she got the chance. Grandma insisted it was ME. If I just wasn't afraid of the dog it wouldn't be mean to me . Evil thing used to lay next to the bathroom door and growl at me when I tried to go in there. She was great with my grandparents, but they knew she was evil with everyone else if they weren't around, they just didn't want to see it as the dogs fault. Was sooo glad when that d@@ned dog died.
Tami
A co-worker who lives in the country is on her third Rottie. She loves those dogs. But, she has stated that there is "something" different about her current rottie. The first two were wonderful, loving, gentle dogs who played wonderfully with her growing children. But the current dog she doesn't quite trust, nothing she can exactly put her finger on, but she is careful about him in a way she didn't have to be about her previous rotties.
My Grandmother had a Samoid (?), white, long haired, looks like a big spitz. HATED that dog when I was a kid. Just knew she would eat me if she got the chance. Grandma insisted it was ME. If I just wasn't afraid of the dog it wouldn't be mean to me . Evil thing used to lay next to the bathroom door and growl at me when I tried to go in there. She was great with my grandparents, but they knew she was evil with everyone else if they weren't around, they just didn't want to see it as the dogs fault. Was sooo glad when that d@@ned dog died.
Tami
Last edited by Justme on Jun 18, 2005 2:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Maybe it's that 3 is a crowd. I know with kids, 3 can be very troublesome, as one is always put out of the group.
Never works.
Never works.
Jane (from the middle of the Mitten state)
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Wow OED. Perfect rant. I agree. Irresponsible breeders and owners should be penalized.
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